Identifying as a different gender

I've just looked again, and the 23.04 I saw previously was the date, not the time, so my bedtime is earlier than I meant it to be. It has been a busy day. G'night

😂

Completely agree with Caleo . One small adjustment would make the greeting appropriate to all genders .

Elegran

I've just looked again, and the 23.04 I saw previously was the date, not the time, so my bedtime is earlier than I meant it to be. It has been a busy day. G'night

😂😂

Ah yes, I see what you mean Doodledog.

I don't think it is question of if an 11 year old girl's request to be addressed in a certain way trumps a teacher's right to be gender critical. The 11year old was following the ethos of the school in requesting to be addressed as "they". Their class mates supported them. The teacher was not following the ethos of the school.
It's a situation which can arise over other ideas such as religion. If for instance a teacher issued a child in a Jewish school with detention ,which would keep the child in school after sunset on a Friday, and the child was expected home for Shabbat, would the child leaving, be them overruling the teacher?
A C of E school or an RC school would be unlikely to employ a teacher who was a creationist because of conflicts of belief.
Teachers do have to conform to the ethos of the school.

I think it's important to have the right balance with children, in terms of respecting them as people and as an authority.

However GC is a belief, a protected one yes but still a belief. Adult beliefs do not trump children's rights or needs. Especially when you can easily use gender neutral pronouns or names and be respectful while keeping your beliefs.

No one in schools should be trying to push their beliefs on children, they should be following the schools guidelines and ethos and the curriculum

I think its important to follow the current thinking around social affirmation. As I have said repeatedly I hope that staff will receive guidelines that reflect this.

galaxy

Gender neutral pronouns and names are not social affirmation anyway

So no need to worry

Saying that sex is biological and immutable and that people cannot change their sex isn't a belief, it's a fact.

I wonder how a school would stand legally Glorianny, if they asked a potential teaching member of staff if they were GC or creationist and if they said they were, didn't get the job. Could that be a case of discrimination?

No, it's a belief Smileless as laid out by the Equality Act

I don't think that's correct VS. Gender neutral pronouns are social affirmation in the same way that gender pronouns are.

By using gender neutral pronouns you are affirming that the person/people you are addressing do not identify as a particular gender. In the same way that using gender pronouns affirms to the person/people you are addressing that they identify as male or female.

I know the Equality acts refers to it as a belief VS but that doesn't alter the fact, that it's a biological fact.

Smileless2012

Saying that sex is biological and immutable and that people cannot change their sex isn't a belief, it's a fact.

I wonder how a school would stand legally Glorianny, if they asked a potential teaching member of staff if they were GC or creationist and if they said they were, didn't get the job. Could that be a case of discrimination?

I didn't know that was the case.

I've known people without any belief who have taught in faith schools; I don't, however, know any creationists at all.

I don't know if it's the case either Callistemon.

Glorianny posted that it was unlikely that a C of E and/or Catholic school would employ a creationist due to a conflict of beliefs, which made me wonder if that could give rise to a claim of discrimination.

Smileless2012

I don't know if it's the case either Callistemon.

Glorianny posted that it was unlikely that a C of E and/or Catholic school would employ a creationist due to a conflict of beliefs, which made me wonder if that could give rise to a claim of discrimination.

A creationist is unlikely to be employed by a Cof E school, but if they were, one of the restrictions upon them would be that they did not teach or promote creationism, as it would conflict with the school ethos.
A template for terms of employment in C ofE schools includes this paragraph
Employees’ attention is drawn to Section 60(5) of the Act which allows us to have regard to any conduct by a teacher which is incompatible with the precepts of, or with the upholding of the tenets of, the Anglican religion, in relation to termination of employment.
So they. might be sacked.

That's interesting, thanks Glorianny.

No gender neutral pronouns are just gender neutral, they don't affirm either gender by definition

Names are names, schools allow for nicknames too, for instance, a child at our school has a nickname after an animal.. let's call them "Llama"

Calling them Llama isn't going to make them grow fir and become dramatic

We have to abuse by preferred names if they are in the child's paperwork

Abide not abuse

All staff must follow staff training, we receive it every year, LGBTQ guidelines too as they relate to safeguarding.

I don't wrote these but I follow them.

The curriculum is very guided towards children being given the opportunity to make theor own minds up on most things but if its in the curriculum like British Values, those are taught directly at an age appropriate level. Safeguarding guidelines however, are expected school wide if an issue comes up

Also it should go without saying that no child should be discriminated against. The rules for who has protected characteristics are laid out in the equality act.

An example of direct discrimination would be using pronouns a child has stated they do not want. A solution would be using gender neutral pronouns for those who feel it compromises their beliefs.

Indirect discrimination could be having a dress code that means a child cannot choose between skirt and trousers. I know the rules on that at my school but not others but I'd assume children are given that choice in most schools

The information you are giving out is not correct. Its not about compromising my belief it is about the latest thinking in regards to children. Social transition involves names, pronouns etc, it is very clear in the cass report this can not be considered a neutral act and more evidence is needed with regards to social transition and an affirmative approach. There are a number of reports on the implications this may have for schools.

Well I can only tell you how things stand at the moment Galaxy and that's how things stand as of my most recent training which I am required to follow. So I'm not "incorrect".

I should also add that any employer can perform a DBS check and turn down your employment as a result.

Here is the law currently on what cpuld lead to a criminal conviction.

No of course they don't affirm either gender by definition that's the point. Gender neutral pronouns affirm that the person being addressed does not want to be identified by gender and/or the person addressing them doesn't want to identify them by gender.

In this particular case, had the teacher not said 'good morning girls' but good morning class, she would have demonstrated that she wasn't identifying anyone in that room by their gender, therefore not offending anyone who didn't want to be addressed with a gender pronoun.

Just as the use of gender pronouns are social affirmation, so is the use of gender neutral pronouns.

what do DBS checks have to do with the discussion?

Of course pronouns are not neutral, even when they refer to so-called 'gender-neutral' people. If they were (neutral) why would there be so much fuss about them?

To refer to someone as a 'girl' is using the accepted term for a young human female, which, AFAIK, is what the child in question was. To refer to her as something else is to accept that she is no longer a girl but is different. That is not a neutral act, whether you view it as positive or negative.

Everything about the ethos of the school and the attitude of the teacher is so much speculation, really. If the school prided itself on its trans-inclusive ideology and marketed itself as such, I would speculate that the odds are there would be more than one non-binary child in any given class; but were I to suggest that on this thread I would no doubt be jumped on, so I won't.