Identifying as a different gender

Glorianny

Apparently though if you identify female bullying you are misogynistic, unless you are a famous writer then you aren't!!!

When I read statements like that I know exactly what it is I find worrying about the gender critical-they will not acknowledge truths or accept any argument in any discussion which means they might have to give ground. It's very worrying.

That is not what I said. I am so sick of you twisting my words - every post I make has to be deconstructed and re-explained. I said that MA is not misogynistic. I have seen her speak more than once, and read a lot of her work, and that is clear. Just as with posters on here, her words mean that I don't need to know her personally to pick up on that.

What 'truth' have I failed to acknowledge? I assume that was a dig at me, as the usual passive aggressive 'some people/the gender critical' is attempting to disguise a direct approach. You've 'known' me long enough to know that I'm not going to burst into tears if you direct something at me - well, directly.

And you've done it again!!

Please ignore my last post.

I am not going to get diverted into a discussion of Margaret Atwood instead of the one about guidelines and whether quoting them as evidence of truth is sensible.

Oh no! Female bullying is bullying if females by females. So your clips of lesbians being bullied is not misogynistic.
The bullying of females by males is misogynistic

How come Violet is described as a victim of bullying?

Iam64

How come Violet is described as a victim of bullying?

Because disagreeing with her, or questioning her about her views always is?

I don’t see you as a victim Doodledog, any more than I perceive Violet as a victim. Double standards?

I'm not a victim

I'm quite a strong person

Good, so can we stop the accusations of bullying then.

Spade is a spade is a spade

As we are not discussing bullying the only requirement is to be different to the rest, tall, short, fat, thin, race, gender you name it. Some girls tried to bully me because I had a pony, it always has gone on now it’s online too.

“Now discussing”

Doodledog

Glorianny

Apparently though if you identify female bullying you are misogynistic, unless you are a famous writer then you aren't!!!

When I read statements like that I know exactly what it is I find worrying about the gender critical-they will not acknowledge truths or accept any argument in any discussion which means they might have to give ground. It's very worrying.

That is not what I said. I am so sick of you twisting my words - every post I make has to be deconstructed and re-explained. I said that MA is not misogynistic. I have seen her speak more than once, and read a lot of her work, and that is clear. Just as with posters on here, her words mean that I don't need to know her personally to pick up on that.

What 'truth' have I failed to acknowledge? I assume that was a dig at me, as the usual passive aggressive 'some people/the gender critical' is attempting to disguise a direct approach. You've 'known' me long enough to know that I'm not going to burst into tears if you direct something at me - well, directly.

Doodledog you are not the only gender critical person on this thread, so why my post should be aimed at you I don't know.
As for MA I think Cat's Eye should be recommended reading for anyone intending to teach. Because it specifically identifies and describes female bullying, which is much more subtle and much less obvious than male bullying and which is often over looked by teachers. Apparently because of that I am misogynistic. Which shows the level some will sink to to win arguments. I know I'm not and I know that my recognition of what girls do to other girls protected many, and enabled me to deal with situations before they escalated. And there is nothing misogynistic about protecting vulnerable girls.

Katie59

As we are not discussing bullying the only requirement is to be different to the rest, tall, short, fat, thin, race, gender you name it. Some girls tried to bully me because I had a pony, it always has gone on now it’s online too.

It's not good

I was obsessed with horses when I was young, I still have all the books I used to read like Snowy River Brumby

Iam64

How come Violet is described as a victim of bullying?

Bullying behaviour is just that bullying behaviour.
The person bullied doesn't have to identify as a victim and I certainly don't regard VS as a victim.
The behaviour however is still bullying.

Doodledog you are not the only gender critical person on this thread, so why my post should be aimed at you I don't know.

Because your post followed the one where I called you out on misogyny? But of course that's where the 'passive' bit of passive aggressive comes in, isn't it - it's easy to deny it. 'Some people', 'the gender critical', so it goes on. Just be honest.

I'm not getting diverted into a discussion of Cat's Eye, though. Trisher used to do that - pick up on a part of a post, or introduce something needling, get a reaction, and before we knew it, the thread was off on another tangent, leaving the difficult questions dangling.

We were talking about whether guidelines were to be adhered to 'just because', and whether someone (anyone) who says that something is true because the guidelines say so is talking sense.

I would say that if you (generic) can identify and trust the experts behind the advice then they should be considered, and I would adhere to them up to a point in a professional capacity if I thought they were irksome or things that I know won't work because they didn't the last three times they were tried. But it is up to the individual how far that becomes a given. I've just watched a disturbing programme on BBC 3 called Death in the Warehouse (or similar). It is about a woman on a management training scheme in an Amazon-style warehouse, who follows the staff manual guidelines until an 'associate' loses her baby. The question it was posing was how far someone should follow their conscience when the guidelines are at odds with it.

And asking someone to justify their posts is not bullying. It is expected in a discussion or debate.

That's a very interesting question Doodledog. It takes courage to follow one's conscience which I why I admire 'whistle blowers' who see what's considered to be acceptable but their conscience wont allow them to participate or allow it to continue.

The Warehouse drama was a difficult watch, but very well done.

I agree that it's a difficult question, and I'd hoped we could explore it without accusations flinging around. I asked it of VS as she keeps bringing guidelines into the discussion, but it applies to the teacher in the case, as well as to so many areas on this subject. Conflicts of conscience have been tested in law (eg Forstater) but it seems they may need clearer explanation so that all staff and employees know the score.

It's a difficult one because what goes against one person's conscience may not go against someone else's. I'm not familiar with the Forstater case; I'll see if I can find anything about it on line.

Oh of course, she won her gender critical belief claim.

I agree that it's a difficult question, and I'd hoped we could explore it without accusations flinging around
Like accusations of misogyny for example?
Honestly at least own your own posts.

I think the problem with a lot of bullies is they do not see themselves as bullies. That would involve feeling shame and shame is too unbearable.

Even when they are deliberately drip drip drip trying to wind a person up until they blow, the blow is their "justification" and they can't see that the blow is the reaction to their behaviour they see their behaviour as them "exposing" the other person.

Even when they are being deliberately rude or making personal comments they have often justified it in their own minds that you deserve it.

Even when they are taking the passive aggressive approach of simply agreeing with anyone who says something unkind about you the justification in their minds is that you deserve it.

When they are demanding you answer questions or accusing you of avoiding questions or otherwise just playing those sorts of games the justification is always there, they don't want answers really, you can tell as soon as you don't get actual discussion in response, they just want a way to catch you out an place themselves above you.

When they are talking about you in front of your face or behind your back by name in directly insulting ways.. you can see how they justify it to each other and how those back pats let them feel better.

Yet bully behaviour is exactly that and there actually is no justification.

And of course a difference can be exactly as simple as having a different opinion.

Male and female patterns of bullying are different yes, the methods used to cover it up are very similar and easily identified though.

I find it all very interesting and understanding the ways in which women bully, and the methods like gaslighting and reversing victim and offender that are used to justify and cover it up become more easy to spot over time but easy to miss for many bystanders

This is an open forum for discussion and asking people questions is to be expected; I haven't seen any demands for answers.

As for the rest, this isn't a thread about bullying and once again it's been disrupted making discussion on the topic of identifying as a different gender virtually impossible.

Glorianny

^I agree that it's a difficult question, and I'd hoped we could explore it without accusations flinging around^
Like accusations of misogyny for example?
Honestly at least own your own posts.

Are you saying that my pointing out the misogyny in your posts is bullying? Seriously?

I do own my own posts and I make it clear whether I am directing comments to one person or in general. In the case of the guidelines posts, I picked up on VS's continual referencing of guidelines and training as though they were gospel, as way of pointing out that those things are not always 100% truth or fact. It was not bullying VS at all, but continuing the bit of the discussion that she began with her reference to training and guidelines. As I said, I have been trained in EO myself, and have been involved in writing institutional guidelines. To save you the bother, I don't need you to tell me that what I learnt and taught is now out of date (although I'm sure you won't be able to resist doing so anyway ), which is my point. Guidelines change, as do the training courses that produce them. They are not absolutes. So anyone seeing them as such is going to be disappointed, and potentially conflicted when they change.

I have said this several times, and others seem to get it.

I think you’re wrong VS. I think you know very well that some of your posts are bullying, often by making a thread “all about you”. I do agree that you’re unlikely to see that as bullying though.