Identifying as a different gender

Doodledog

When the new guidelines come in, will you insist that they are correct, even if they contradict the current ones that you defend to the hilt, VS? Or will you stick to your current views and concede that guidelines can be wrong?

If you think I won't insist apon the guidelines I am given and follow them to the letter, you don't me at all doodledog lol

I will always do my best for the children in my care and follow my training

I will always do my best for the children in my care and follow my training

But what if the two things conflict? lol

Suppose the guidelines say that you are not supposed to refer to a trans-identifying child as the sex to which they identify? Would you risk their 'authentic selves' and obey guidelines, or would you follow your training and use pronouns appropriate to the sex they were born in.

How can they conflict?

Latest guidelines are latest

When my first child was born, I was told sleeping them on their front was fine.

When my second child was born I was told sleeping on their back was safer

When my last child was born, I was told feet to foot was safer

I listened every time

At the moment I don't think I will be asked to call a child anything that will upset them and make them lose trust in me.

Also gender neutral pronouns exist and could be a possible recommendation

I was wondering about that too. I suppose that one would have to follow the guidelines of the time, regardless of one's personal opinion.

If the teacher in this case knew what the school's ethos and guidelines were but chose to ignore them because of her personal opinion, as opposed to a slip of the tongue, then she was wrong.

I

I know you left. butits fun to watch your
So so anti female stance.
And if the guidelines insist that plurals be used and a child/children want(s) to be referred to with a pronoun which reflects the sex they actually are, you’d insist on following the guidelines?

Exactly

Oh that last reply wasn't to you Mollygo

I have freedom of choice and can come and go as I please

I will follow the guidelines I am given, that's my job

You have told me before that you wouldn't want me teaching your grandchildren because of my opinions and I will tell you again:

My opinions and my job are seperate

I'd teach your grandchildren phonics and maths and their topics, I'd support their social and emotional development, I'd adapt their learning to methods that ensure their understanding, I would create resources for them in my own time, I'd take on training in my own time for any needs they have.

I do my job to the best of my ability like many in education.

Nice avoidance.
So you would willingly upset a child by refusing to call a girl, she or a boy he, because the guidelines say you must use something different,
But you’ll happily repronoun all boys and girls to suit trans wishes?


I don’t think I’ve ever said I wouldn’t want you teaching my grandchildren, although I have read it said about you. Obviously hit home whoever said it.
I’m sure you’re correct me if I’m wrong with time and date and thread.

I'm in KS1 Mollygo it's not likely to be an issue for me

But if my comments don't prove I'm willing to be led by expert advice on this subject, what more can I say?

It's a hypothetical question anyway at this point

I can be as opinionated about it as I like on gransnet though

Honestly the targeting of individuals (and particularly VS) on GN is unbelievable and an example of the worst kind of bullying. It is a peculiarly female version which you sometimes see in schools. I always wondered where girls learned it. Now I know.
It's a simple process.
Ask a question with two possible answers.
Which ever answer s given chastise the individual for giving it.
Some of you need to grow up.

^So you would willingly upset a child by refusing to call a girl, she or a boy he, because the guidelines say you must use something different,
But you’ll happily repronoun all boys and girls to suit trans wishes?^
Are trans wishes actually that though, Mollygo, or do they just want their pronouns used as they want them?
The Guidance will probably be so that nobody will be offended so they won't expect a child to be called by a neutral pronoun if they don't want to be. Mind you, most young children probably couldn't care less.

It will be a nightmare for anyone working in schools though icanhandthemback, how are they supposed to remember with children they're not with all of the time?

It'll be name/gender tags next and that doesn't bear thinking about.

Glorianny

Honestly the targeting of individuals (and particularly VS) on GN is unbelievable and an example of the worst kind of bullying. It is a peculiarly female version which you sometimes see in schools. I always wondered where girls learned it. Now I know.
It's a simple process.
Ask a question with two possible answers.
Which ever answer s given chastise the individual for giving it.
Some of you need to grow up.

I asked the question (and have not responded until now), as IMO it is a dilemma which can very easily affect those acting within guidelines. Most people who work with other people will sometimes have to implement guidelines with which they may disagree. I directed it at VS because she so often explains that her views must be right because she has had training and knows the guidelines.

My POV is that yes, employees have to work within guidelines, whether they like them or not, but that means that guidelines are released in line with current thinking, which shifts all the time, demonstrating that the absolutes so often expressed on here are nothing more than fashions.

Your internalised misogyny is showing again, BTW . It's never been far from the surface, but your 'female version of bullying' comment is a classic example - particularly as you, as a woman yourself, are somehow set above it, in your view anyway.

VioletSky

How can they conflict?

Latest guidelines are latest

When my first child was born, I was told sleeping them on their front was fine.

When my second child was born I was told sleeping on their back was safer

When my last child was born, I was told feet to foot was safer

I listened every time

Yes, rightly so. But does that mean that putting babies on their fronts was wrong? Or that it was right, and you shouldn't have put the second one on his or her back? Or that guidelines are really matters of the opinion of the person in power at the time, and therefore subjective?

doodledog

1000s less babies were lost to cot death

Yes, I know. But does that mean that you were right or wrong to follow the guidelines?

Or put it another way - do you still think that because something is a guideline it has to be right? How does that fit with your views on guidelines about dealing with children who say they are 'in the wrong gender'? You have passionately defended affirming their beliefs, but if the guidelines change would you change your mind and argue that affirmation is harmful (if that is what they change to say)?

I would say that they're subjective, which is why they're called guidelines.

I'd wait to see the evidence

And no of course I was not "wrong"

People can only work with the information they have at the time

I see a lot of people defend their way of doing things in the past as "right" because they haven't perceived any harm that came from it

That's entirely different to saying "it wasn't wrong at that time but it would be wrong now"

Doodledog do you really imagine that every teacher believes in every policy or guideline operating in every school all over the country? Of course they don't. Some of them have ideas which conflict with some of them. But teachers are professional people so they behave in a professional manner and comply with the regulations the school requires. I'm sure they will continue to do so. Of course they are creative and inventive people and faced with restrictions on the terms they are permitted to use they may well find a way around the problem.

For the best example and description of female bullying I recommend you read Margaret Atwood's Cat's Eye. It certainly drew the matter to my attention and enabled me to spot it. Of course she may just be misogynistic as well.

Ok, so things can be right at one time, then wrong later? I agree. All sorts of things have seemed like the right thing to do when they are in vogue, but then it is found that they weren't the right thing after all (eg forcing people to write with their right hand).

That doesn't reflect on those who followed the advice in good faith, but it does suggest that guidelines are not about fact, but opinion.

Glorianny

Doodledog do you really imagine that every teacher believes in every policy or guideline operating in every school all over the country? Of course they don't. Some of them have ideas which conflict with some of them. But teachers are professional people so they behave in a professional manner and comply with the regulations the school requires. I'm sure they will continue to do so. Of course they are creative and inventive people and faced with restrictions on the terms they are permitted to use they may well find a way around the problem.

For the best example and description of female bullying I recommend you read Margaret Atwood's Cat's Eye. It certainly drew the matter to my attention and enabled me to spot it. Of course she may just be misogynistic as well.

Of course I don't believe that - in fact if you read my post I specifically said that anyone who works with people will have to work within guidelines with which they may disagree.

And I have read Cat's Eye. No, Atwood is not misogynistic. Her writings and her talks are testament to that.

They types of bullying and abuse more commonly shown in women are well documented

Just as the types of bullying and abuse more commonly shown by men are well documented

Just look at genders by numbers and crime in prison

We cannot have it both ways I am afraid and say men have patterns of behaviour and women don't

Apparently though if you identify female bullying you are misogynistic, unless you are a famous writer then you aren't!!!

When I read statements like that I know exactly what it is I find worrying about the gender critical-they will not acknowledge truths or accept any argument in any discussion which means they might have to give ground. It's very worrying.

I understand glorianny and have the same concerns

I've only come across one other subject where I experience the same thing

It's OK to be wrong, it's how we grow