Puzzled about 'kidnapping' lambs

To be fair, I remember a dairy farmer telling me that we have bred milk cows to be domestic and docile and in doing so, made them quite stupid

She said that they just aren't good mother's, that without support they don't notice they had a baby which suffocates without human intervention to clear the airways and that they just don't take care of their babies well

A human caused problem of course

Violetsky that is the biggest load of rubbish put out by the dairy industry to try to convince people that taking calves from their mothers so we can take their milk is fine. Have you heard a dairy cow crying for its calf, often for days? Or trying to climb over barriers in desperation.

There are a few dairy farmers who are pioneering ‘cow with calf’ milking which allows cows to keep their calves with them whilst being milked, and be weaned more naturally. Hopefully this will grow if people insist on continuing to drink something that is after all a completely unnatural food for humans.

Maybe that's true but I remember reading about a dairy farmer who tried a free range approach losing 70% of calves due to the cows not attending after birth predators or accidentally trampling their young...

I'm open minded to that being a lie by all dairy farmers

Logically... The collustrum lasts a few days whether the calf is taken or not right? The babies would need the same amount of milk whether it came from teet or bottle... So why would this be considered best practise?

I admire people who are vegan and vegetarian, I eat little meat. Not half as much as when I was younger when I ate anything. One question I have never found either vs able to answer. "If the whole world stopped eating meat and dairy tomorrow what would happen to all the animals? Would you have a wholesale slaughter of them and bury the remains, or would you just leave them to slowly starve to death? Because there wouldn't be enough land to feed us and them, and farmers would stop feeding them.

nightowl

Violetsky that is the biggest load of rubbish put out by the dairy industry to try to convince people that taking calves from their mothers so we can take their milk is fine. Have you heard a dairy cow crying for its calf, often for days? Or trying to climb over barriers in desperation.

There are a few dairy farmers who are pioneering ‘cow with calf’ milking which allows cows to keep their calves with them whilst being milked, and be weaned more naturally. Hopefully this will grow if people insist on continuing to drink something that is after all a completely unnatural food for humans.

I bought milk from an organic dairy in the early 80s in America. They practiced "family herds" there even then. It is not the case that we have to farm intensively or inhumanely.

The things we could change quite easily we just don't want to.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/24/animal-welfare-groups-lose-court-challenge-over-frankenchickens

Only M&S and Waitrose don't buy these, apparently.

Glorianny

I admire people who are vegan and vegetarian, I eat little meat. Not half as much as when I was younger when I ate anything. One question I have never found either vs able to answer. "If the whole world stopped eating meat and dairy tomorrow what would happen to all the animals? Would you have a wholesale slaughter of them and bury the remains, or would you just leave them to slowly starve to death? Because there wouldn't be enough land to feed us and them, and farmers would stop feeding them.

There is archaeological evidence that hominins have been eating meat and marrow for about two million years. They've probably been eating eggs for much longer and drinking milk from other species for about 6-10,000 years. If everybody in the world stopped eating meat, we'd reverse evolution and I don't think anybody really knows how that would turn out - certainly, none of us would be around to know.

Glorianny

I admire people who are vegan and vegetarian, I eat little meat. Not half as much as when I was younger when I ate anything. One question I have never found either vs able to answer. "If the whole world stopped eating meat and dairy tomorrow what would happen to all the animals? Would you have a wholesale slaughter of them and bury the remains, or would you just leave them to slowly starve to death? Because there wouldn't be enough land to feed us and them, and farmers would stop feeding them.

Farmers would slowly decrease herds, as people slowly quit eating meat. No bull in the pasture = no more babies. All baby bulls cut (as mostly happens anyway). The replacement heifers sold more quickly than now - less meat would slowly be available, just because. No starving.

Farmers farm, it's what they do, they know how to control yields.

nightowl

Violetsky that is the biggest load of rubbish put out by the dairy industry to try to convince people that taking calves from their mothers so we can take their milk is fine. Have you heard a dairy cow crying for its calf, often for days? Or trying to climb over barriers in desperation.

There are a few dairy farmers who are pioneering ‘cow with calf’ milking which allows cows to keep their calves with them whilst being milked, and be weaned more naturally. Hopefully this will grow if people insist on continuing to drink something that is after all a completely unnatural food for humans.

We could all make and drink healthy oat milk.

No, we couldn't. Oat milk shouldn't be given to children under five and some people are allergic to oats.

And it contains about 70% more carbs than semi-skimmed cow milk.

growstuff

No, we couldn't. Oat milk shouldn't be given to children under five and some people are allergic to oats.

Many are allergic to milk and drink something else. I dislike soy milk, don't care for rice milk, and abhor dairy milk. We merely drink oat milk I make. I nursed - some do, others use formula.

Oh dear, better tell my healthy 7 year old grandson that he shouldn’t have drunk oat milk from the age of one despite being allergic to dairy and to soya. All properly diagnosed by a consultant and monitored by a dietitian.

Here we go...

Norah

Glorianny

I admire people who are vegan and vegetarian, I eat little meat. Not half as much as when I was younger when I ate anything. One question I have never found either vs able to answer. "If the whole world stopped eating meat and dairy tomorrow what would happen to all the animals? Would you have a wholesale slaughter of them and bury the remains, or would you just leave them to slowly starve to death? Because there wouldn't be enough land to feed us and them, and farmers would stop feeding them.

Farmers would slowly decrease herds, as people slowly quit eating meat. No bull in the pasture = no more babies. All baby bulls cut (as mostly happens anyway). The replacement heifers sold more quickly than now - less meat would slowly be available, just because. No starving.

Farmers farm, it's what they do, they know how to control yields.

What would our dogs eat?

I do not like cows milk, lots of dairy intolerance in my family. I do love butter and cheese though, even if it doesn't love me

That's interesting you make your Oat milk Norah, must be so much cheaper!

I always think back to the animal rights people who released all those mink into the wild that are still wreaking havoc with water voles etc.

nightowl

Oh dear, better tell my healthy 7 year old grandson that he shouldn’t have drunk oat milk from the age of one despite being allergic to dairy and to soya. All properly diagnosed by a consultant and monitored by a dietitian.

Indeed.

MayBee70

Norah

Glorianny

I admire people who are vegan and vegetarian, I eat little meat. Not half as much as when I was younger when I ate anything. One question I have never found either vs able to answer. "If the whole world stopped eating meat and dairy tomorrow what would happen to all the animals? Would you have a wholesale slaughter of them and bury the remains, or would you just leave them to slowly starve to death? Because there wouldn't be enough land to feed us and them, and farmers would stop feeding them.

Farmers would slowly decrease herds, as people slowly quit eating meat. No bull in the pasture = no more babies. All baby bulls cut (as mostly happens anyway). The replacement heifers sold more quickly than now - less meat would slowly be available, just because. No starving.

Farmers farm, it's what they do, they know how to control yields.

What would our dogs eat?

I cook brown rice and lamb for mine.

I think Hetty has it right they have been removed to stop them being slaughtered to go on your plates with the mint sauce
I hope they are gambolling in the sunshine

nightowl

Oh dear, better tell my healthy 7 year old grandson that he shouldn’t have drunk oat milk from the age of one despite being allergic to dairy and to soya. All properly diagnosed by a consultant and monitored by a dietitian.

Fine, if it's being monitored by somebody who knows what they're doing and the diet is otherwise adequate. However, it's less nutritious than cow milk.

In some parts of the world, owning a cow or goat gives people a survival advantage. If they live in part of the world where water is scarce and/or crops fail, they can drink milk for nutrition for most of the year.

Humans have evolved into omnivores over millions of years and it's doubtful that evolution could be reversed in the short term.

The population is just as likely to stop eating meat as they are to stop using oil, as individuals we can choose to reduce consumption if we want to, because 99% of us are eating meat and using oil, that’s not going to happen soon.

I cook brown rice and lamb for mine. Norah are you really happy for lambs to be slaughtered for your dog but not for humans?

Cats are obligate carnivores so when farmed animals disappear lets hope all the kitties can brush up on their hunting skills, as they'll need to. The songbirds we currently enjoy in our gardens might not lead the applause.

There'll be no more wool or leather, so it will be those lovely manmade materials which are so toxic in their manufacture, some from petroleum based chemicals.

I expect somebody is already developing farm machinery that will cope when the Welsh hill farmers have to switch from sheep to crops.....or maybe not. Still a few more impoverished farmers probably don't count.

I eat little meat but enjoy what I do. I also love butter and cheese and no substitute has ever been acceptable for me.If that makes me immoral Hetty58 at least I have the morality not to steal, unlike those 3 women. If they wanted to rescue those lambs they could legally buy them from the farmer, honest and above board.

Humans are indeed omnivores, but I think the amounts of meat and dairy we consume in western countries is far in excess of what our bodies can tolerate, as evidenced by the levels of disease we experience.

It’s theft. Sheep farmers have a hard enough time as it is without the theft of their livestock.

I was wondering where you imagined the lamb would come from to feed your dog Norah if we were predominately vegan. Farmers would not produce meat on the scale they do now, so costs per animal would rocket and meat would become hideously expensive. You might not be able to afford your dog.