Cancel Culture or Free Speech

Galaxy

Honestly Glorianny I am capable of knowing where I am on the political spectrum without your assistance. As I said the Tories were all in favour of self ID and of reforming the GRA.

Never underestimate the ability of the right to latch onto a minority to castigate. I take it this was when immigration was going to be completely regulated and kept down? Didn't need trans people then did they? Now immigration is proving an economic necessity there must be someone else they can demonise. Ah yes transpeople (well transwomen, we don't talk about transmen)

Glorianny

Galaxy

Honestly Glorianny I am capable of knowing where I am on the political spectrum without your assistance. As I said the Tories were all in favour of self ID and of reforming the GRA.

Never underestimate the ability of the right to latch onto a minority to castigate. I take it this was when immigration was going to be completely regulated and kept down? Didn't need trans people then did they? Now immigration is proving an economic necessity there must be someone else they can demonise. Ah yes transpeople (well transwomen, we don't talk about transmen)

Are you really suggesting that those of us expressing a view in favour of debate - Kathleen Stock in this particular instance on this thread - don't have the intellectual capacity to realise that the RW media, and the RW government, will hijack it for their own ends?

I know where I am on the political spectrum and don't feel in any way aligned with the hard Right who, for their own political ends, will exploit the debate. They don't care about trans gender 'issues' - neither do they care about biological women's opposition to some of those issues. The whole thing is just a tool for them to exploit for their own political gain... and the RW media to gain more 'clicks' which will ultimately garner more advertising revenue.

We really aren't as politically naive as you're suggesting we are.

As I have pointed out a thousand times it was feminists who pointed out the rise in girls transitioning at the tavistock, what happened at the tavistock disproportionately impacted those identifying as men. So yes I talk about transmen all the time. In fact I would say my concern for what is happening to girls ( particularly those who have experienced trauma or are autistic) is possibly greater than my current concerns for single sex space issues.

Oh yes that's absolutely true that Dickens the Tories care not one fig about women or transpeople. What I dont want labour to do is hand votes to the Tories by sitting on Good morning Britain and saying women have a penis. I watched the lib dems do that at the last election.

My understanding of going to university is that along with the 'book learning' one also learns tolerance, empathy and how people can have a very different view point on issues and still hopefully have respect for each other. How can this come about without debate and discussion in a safe space( eg NOT on social media)

Galaxy

As I have pointed out a thousand times it was feminists who pointed out the rise in girls transitioning at the tavistock, what happened at the tavistock disproportionately impacted those identifying as men. So yes I talk about transmen all the time. In fact I would say my concern for what is happening to girls ( particularly those who have experienced trauma or are autistic) is possibly greater than my current concerns for single sex space issues.

Yes but there isn't quite so much political headway in that is there? Whereas transwomen-wow! Get at women, get at lefties, scaremonger about transactivists (and their supporters), scare people about what might happen to their kids. pretend you care about women. Be as reactionary as you like.

I think most educational establishments champion British Values

Individual Liberty
Tolerance
Respect

keepcalmandcavachon

My understanding of going to university is that along with the 'book learning' one also learns tolerance, empathy and how people can have a very different view point on issues and still hopefully have respect for each other. How can this come about without debate and discussion in a safe space( eg NOT on social media)

But university is also where you find your place in society, and if someone at that university tells you the self you are dealing with is a fiction you are not going to be pleased with her are you? And university is also where you demonstrate noisily about your beliefs and ideals.
In the 60s there were sit ins and lock outs. Some of this demonstrating goes nowhere near that
www.researchcghe.org/blog/2018-05-04-50-years-ago-may-1968-and-the-british-art-school-uprising/

And still you condone the violence and that some trans and TRAs are doing towards females-the very females that they claim they want to be.
Is that a right wing or a left wing characteristic.

No,I don't suppose you would be pleased Glorianny and yes, universities are where you can "demonstrate noisily about your beliefs and ideals", but they are also a place for learning.

A place for listening to opinions and beliefs you may not agree with or accept. A place where students will be availed of information and points of view they may have never come across before.

They are not bubbles or echo chambers where any student should ever expect that only views and opinions that align with their own, have the right to be heard.

glorianny

Also universities are for facts and education, when learning about beliefs, they are presented as beliefs, not facts

Kathleen Stock was not presenting facts and is a professor of philosophy specialising in... fiction

She is not a scientist

Many scientists would agree that biological sex is more than chromosomes and genitalia, there are also hormonal considerations, internal sex organs, external sex organs and biological sex is proven not to be clear at all on some individuals. Those are facts.

Also as there are many trans people who stay clear of the trans debate, some intersex people steer clear of it too

Some do not:

www.minus18.org.au/articles/i'm-intersex:-here's-what-that-means

Which individuals are you talking about if you mean people with dsds, they are all Male or female.
Sex is a protected characteristic under the equality act.
I am really sorry but you cant change sex we all know that. Biological sex is important in some circumstances.

if someone at that university tells you the self you are dealing with is a fiction you are not going to be pleased with her are you? What about students with strong religious faiths that influence every part of their being? Should Richard Dawkins be sacked were he still employed for professing his atheism loudly and writing 'The God Delusion' ? I am a gender atheist, that puts me on the same level in that respect as him.

Biological sex is binary, and that's a fact. There are two gametes and two gametes only. Nobody has ever found a third, fourth or more. Just because there are anomalies does not in any way disprove that. Humans are bipedal, some people are born with less than two legs, that doesn't mean there is a scale of how many legs humans should have, it means something went wrong. Differences of sexual development, DSDs, do not mean there aren't two sexes. Every single human that has ever been born was the result of a gamete from a male, the sperm, fusing with the gamete of a female, the ova. We were all born from women, even surrogate babies are born from the uterus of a woman, the body that doesn't have a penis.

And even if everyone in the world chanted transwomen are women and transmen are men it would have zero impact on biological sex.

Honestly I can say it now, transwomen are women, that has no impact on whether Eddie Izzard for example is a man or a woman. Nobody has that power.

What many intersex people want is to be assigned intersex at birth and allowed to grow up and make their own decisions about whether or not they feel more male or more female or prefer to remain non binary

They deserve their space to say so and are largely not given it and disregarded

But the essential truth is that Kathleen Stock is an expert on trans people and matters of biology in the same way my left sock is an expert on philosophy, specialising in fiction

Both should put a foot in it

Many people with a dsd are also asking not to be dragged into a debate on transpeople, as they feel it's nothing to do with them.

They may want that VioletSky, do you have a link?, but they are one sex or the other, they don't get to choose their sex any more than anybody else. They can live exactly as they wish but their sex is innate, just like you and me.

I think she knows quite a lot about womens spaces and the importance of biological sex and the importance of sex as a protected characteristic.

Galaxy

Many people with a dsd are also asking not to be dragged into a debate on transpeople, as they feel it's nothing to do with them.

Well certainly my friend with a DSD is repulsed by the term intersex, saying it makes her sound like a freak, neither one thing nor the other. She's not alone in not wanting to be used in the trans debate as her having a condition is nothing to do with being or not being transgender.

It's estimated that 2.7% of the world population has an intersex trait and a clinical review paper in 2012 found between 8.5% and 20% of people with intersex variations experience gender dysphoria.

VioletSky

I think most educational establishments champion British Values

Individual Liberty
Tolerance
Respect

Indeed. Which means the liberty to express views, and then being heard with tolerance and respect.👏

Perhaps this message should be spread to the more extreme trans fans?