Cancel Culture or Free Speech

Galaxy

I am afraid that you get left wing monsters. Its beyond naive to think you dont. Stalin never counts in these discussions.

Of course you do. But saying that doesn't negate the aims of the left wing.
It's a bit ridiculous really.
Or would you like me to post a list of right wing monsters? Problem is there are so many.

Castro seems to have been abandoned

Galaxy

I think it's quite a hard lesson to realise that the left are as capable of horrendous things as the right. Its particularly difficult nowadays when our politics are entwined with our identity.

So waht does this mean? Are you now saying you are not left wing?

It's very hard for the average person these days. The Left is going along with all this gender nonsense and the Right are appearing fascist. What to do?

Sorry this concept that you can only justify right wing views by bringing up things like Stalin is pathetic.
The basic aims of left wing theory remain the same that people have equal rights and that equality is something to be established and legally enforced.
The basic aims of the right remain the same that some people deserve more than others and that minority groups and people who are different are to be targeted and blamed for society's ills.
And if that ties in with some gender critical views, well maybe people need to examine those views again.
Because I am absolutely certain that fighting and supporting someone else's rights is equally as important as fighting for my own, because anyone who would deprive another human being of those rights will not stop at one group of people but will progress to others.

Kathleen Stock referred to transwomen as being immersed in a fiction she compared it to playing video games. Trans people are prepared to discuss most things but not the reality of their existence, that is the very nature of transphobia.
Saying you can change sex is a fiction that many trans (and evidently you) are immersed in.
Saying males have the right to be in female safe spaces is another fiction which they (and evidently you) are immersed in.

Likening trans to video game is a bit unfair, but I suppose that as Zelda you can go anywhere, do as you like and threaten those who get in your way, and that is the public face of trans thanks to the actions of TRA.

I must have missed where she, or I, or anyone has said trans don’t exist, and have no rights, (outside those where they are claiming that saying you are a woman means you should be allowed in female safe spaces, competitions etc.)

What is it trans want to debate, apart from their rights being more important than the rights of natal females?

I never knew the first trans I met was trans (backing up your statement that you can’t tell just by looking.) Neither she/he, nor the few I have met via her/him have any wish to be embroiled in the vocal and physical violence that is being perpetrated in the name of trans. They feel it is doing more harm than good and they (not me) are the ones who are suffering.
Note! I am not asking you to find proof, or answers

Galaxy

I think it's quite a hard lesson to realise that the left are as capable of horrendous things as the right. Its particularly difficult nowadays when our politics are entwined with our identity.

Absolutely. Left wing is about Big State and collectivism and Right wing more about a free market and individualism. Authoritarianism runs through both at the extremes.

All of these issues are far more complex than X=Good and Y=Bad, but you wouldn't think it from many of these threads.

This one has got nasty again. Would anyone like to pinpoint what caused that?

Glorianny

Doodledog

Anyone who is driven out of a well-paid job (or a badly-paid one for that matter) simply because of tweeting views that are not popular with extremists is a victim. I would say the same if her views did not align with mine. I don't need lists of patronising virtues to say that, as it is true.

Sorry who was "driven out"? If I chose to work in a university which had say, largely black or mixed race students, and I wrote a book which claimed different things about the slave trade and I arrived one day to find "Black Lives Matter" stickers on most doors, should I take that personally?

From Wikipedia

In October 2021, she resigned from the University of Sussex.[11] This came after a student campaign took place calling for her dismissal and the university trade union accused the university of "institutional transphobia".[12][13] A group of over 200 academic philosophers from the UK signed an open letter in support of Stock's academic freedom.[14][15]

On 28 October 2021, the university announced Stock's resignation from the position following controversy around her views on gender identity; the announcement, written by the school's vice-chancellor, expressed regret that Stock did not "feel able to return to work" and that she had been subject to "bullying and harassment"

Seems pretty clear there was a plan to drive her out or is a campaign to get someone dismissed a 'kind' thing now?

Oh, and how was I justifying anything? You are twisting my words AGAIN.

And I think that calling another poster 'pathetic' is well beyond the 'spirit of Gransnet'. I have done nothing to deserve that, and if you can find a single line in a single post where I have not been polite and extremely patient, despite provocation and rudeness, I will be more than surprised.

Would you prefer Mao? Or, as ICHTB suggested, Putin?

There are numerous examples that make the same point without justifying a single thing. I wouldn't justify any of them, however Left wing they might be.

Of course you do Galaxy, monsters can be found in all groups.

"immersed in a fiction" fiction being something that's invented or untrue. Trans women cannot be women so to say they can be is untrue. Saying that trans women can't be women is not denying their existence as trans women, it's denying their claim that they can be/are women.

For the trans gender community, I would say this. It is clear that the choices you make about the way you want to live your lives are being co-opted by those who do not have your interests at heart.

Doodledog

Yep. It is as I said upthread. There is a lot of 'simplification' of the meaning of Left and Right on here.

I think there's Left and Right (posting on here too)... then there's the more extreme versions of both.

And then there's those of us who are somewhat in the middle and don't see this as a L v R matter, but recognise it's one that will be exploited by elements of both.

Rosie51

Glorianny

Doodledog

Anyone who is driven out of a well-paid job (or a badly-paid one for that matter) simply because of tweeting views that are not popular with extremists is a victim. I would say the same if her views did not align with mine. I don't need lists of patronising virtues to say that, as it is true.

Sorry who was "driven out"? If I chose to work in a university which had say, largely black or mixed race students, and I wrote a book which claimed different things about the slave trade and I arrived one day to find "Black Lives Matter" stickers on most doors, should I take that personally?

From Wikipedia

In October 2021, she resigned from the University of Sussex.[11] This came after a student campaign took place calling for her dismissal and the university trade union accused the university of "institutional transphobia".[12][13] A group of over 200 academic philosophers from the UK signed an open letter in support of Stock's academic freedom.[14][15]

On 28 October 2021, the university announced Stock's resignation from the position following controversy around her views on gender identity; the announcement, written by the school's vice-chancellor, expressed regret that Stock did not "feel able to return to work" and that she had been subject to "bullying and harassment"

Seems pretty clear there was a plan to drive her out or is a campaign to get someone dismissed a 'kind' thing now?

Rosie51 you do know that Wiki is largely written by the people it is about don't you.
Another example of anti-trans culture
Try reading about Professor Alison Phipps who offered the flags displayed on the doors in the university to show support for transstudents because she was worried about their welfare in the light of the election of Donald Trump and other anti-trans events. Something Kathleen Stock chose to take personally.
Prof Phipps had to withdraw from twitter because of abuse after Kathleen Stock accused her.

Doodledog

Galaxy

I think it's quite a hard lesson to realise that the left are as capable of horrendous things as the right. Its particularly difficult nowadays when our politics are entwined with our identity.

Absolutely. Left wing is about Big State and collectivism and Right wing more about a free market and individualism. Authoritarianism runs through both at the extremes.

All of these issues are far more complex than X=Good and Y=Bad, but you wouldn't think it from many of these threads.

This one has got nasty again. Would anyone like to pinpoint what caused that?

Most of us aren't extreme.

I would say I'm left with economics etc, but I still don't want biological men invading my spaces.

Not sure whether that makes me right, left or just confused...🙄

Dickens

Doodledog

Yep. It is as I said upthread. There is a lot of 'simplification' of the meaning of Left and Right on here.

I think there's Left and Right (posting on here too)... then there's the more extreme versions of both.

And then there's those of us who are somewhat in the middle and don't see this as a L v R matter, but recognise it's one that will be exploited by elements of both.

That's the point I was trying to make. I am not justifying anything at all, (and to suggest that I am some sort of Stalin apologist is laughable). I was simply pointing out that simplistic statements don't add anything to this (or any other) discussion. As I said earlier, I don't think that left/right dichotomies have anything to do with trans issues. It is Glorianny who keeps bringing them up.

And the trans lobby on here say that it is they who are subjected to hounding and insults. You couldn't make it up.

The Tories were absolutely in favour of self id a few years ago (whatever denials penny mordaunt is issuing now) so is self ID a bad thing because the Tories supported it.

Doodledog

Would you prefer Mao? Or, as ICHTB suggested, Putin?

There are numerous examples that make the same point without justifying a single thing. I wouldn't justify any of them, however Left wing they might be.

I see your Mao and raise you Hitler
I see your Putin and raise you Pinochet.
Are we going to go on playing this silly game? I'm reasonable certain there are more right than left wing dictators.
Have you forgotten Castro?

This is really interesting... I published a similar post last week and was dismayed to find responses seemed to be getting heated quite quickly. However, I had visitors and could not respond till a day or 2 later by which time the whole thread had vanished whereas this one is 9 pages long....!?

I think the problem with posting left and right wing ideals and beliefs is that it makes some posters realise they are closer to the right than they believed. They then start attacking with complete irrelevancies seeking to justify the unjustifiable.

No I have just read amnestys view on the repression under Castro.
You introduced the game by saying the left were always kn the side of minorities, they arent, neither are the right of course, and as for the lib dems

seadragon

This is really interesting... I published a similar post last week and was dismayed to find responses seemed to be getting heated quite quickly. However, I had visitors and could not respond till a day or 2 later by which time the whole thread had vanished whereas this one is 9 pages long....!?

seadragon I saw your thread and searched for it and couldn't find it again. Have you any idea what happened to it?

Honestly Glorianny I am capable of knowing where I am on the political spectrum without your assistance. As I said the Tories were all in favour of self ID and of reforming the GRA.

What was it about sea dragon? This particular subject or freedom of speech in general.

Glorianny Rosie51 you do know that Wiki is largely written by the people it is about don't you.
Another example of anti-trans culture

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sussex-university-students-campaign-to-have-transphobic-professor-kathleen-stock-sacked-qpn82tpbh

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/oct/07/university-defends-academic-freedoms-after-calls-to-sack-professor

These any better for you?

Glorianny

Doodledog

Would you prefer Mao? Or, as ICHTB suggested, Putin?

There are numerous examples that make the same point without justifying a single thing. I wouldn't justify any of them, however Left wing they might be.

I see your Mao and raise you Hitler
I see your Putin and raise you Pinochet.
Are we going to go on playing this silly game? I'm reasonable certain there are more right than left wing dictators.
Have you forgotten Castro?

No, I mentioned him along with Stalin.

I am not playing games. You might feel a bit of a fool as a result, but all I was doing was showing that your simplistic ideas about left and right are, well, simplistic. There is no need to overreact.

I've had enough of this thread. It started so well, with intelligent comments about the C4 programme and other debating points, but as ever, as soon as people are held to account, either for posting inflammatory statements they don't justify, for being insulting to others, or for being simplistic then the aggression and nastiness starts. There is no need for it at all.

Rosie51

Glorianny Rosie51 you do know that Wiki is largely written by the people it is about don't you.
Another example of anti-trans culture

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sussex-university-students-campaign-to-have-transphobic-professor-kathleen-stock-sacked-qpn82tpbh

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/oct/07/university-defends-academic-freedoms-after-calls-to-sack-professor

These any better for you?

I do know what was said in the media Rosie51 I also know what was said by people who worked with Stock.
Like the trans support flags she claimed were about her and others said were not.
I have absolutely no doubt that the students at Sussex wanted rid of her, as someone has already said it is a centre for LGTBQ students.
The question of what was hounding and what was simply supporting trans students is a grey area and Stock chose to take it one way.