Cancel Culture or Free Speech

But as we well know, for some posters on GN, the right to female safe spaces is usually accompanied by the comment that females are responsible for challenging any threatening males.
For those posters, all responsibility for being honest instead of dishonest or deceitful is removed from males with whatever label to police their own actions.

If this is aimed at me it is a misrepresentation.
I think the women who use any spaces should be free to decide who access these spaces.
I think this is vital for a number of reasons. If women surrender this decision to other bodies or organisations it is quite likely that men will be involved in deciding. And I vehemently oppose the idea that men can take any decision about a safe space for women. To do so takes a step along the route where women are not just offered safe spaces, but have to keep to them.
There will be spaces where the majority of women are happy to share with transwomen and they should be free to say so.
How those safe spaces are policed should also be the decision of the women using them

I don't believe I took part in the conversation about biological women, did I? If you count the post about someone dressing as something not being it, that didn't twist anything. It is true. How could it not be. I don't know if you are counting that as part of the 'biological woman' discussion though. If not, then I made no comment, so couldn't have twisted your words - as I say, I don't do that.

And others can decide about whether the comments about Stock were 'reasoned debate'. As I say, I completely disagree that the vitriolic comments were reasoned at all, but that's fine. As I said, I'm sure she's heard worse, and won't be crying into her tea in the unlikely event that she's reading this. Other readers can decide for themselves whether it was 'reasoned debate' or spite.

Consent doesn't work like that I am afraid. You cant consent for other women.

Galaxy

Consent doesn't work like that I am afraid. You cant consent for other women.

Sorry?

So if some women dont consent to sharing a space with men, other women or men shouldnt be able to decide for them. They have said no. What other women are happy with is up to them but they cant enforce it on others. I wouldnt dream of telling you that you cant share a space with a man, crack on, but when it's a single sex space you cant decide for others. Its consent, you know some women are saying no and you carry on regardless. I am using a general you here.

Doodledog

I don't believe I took part in the conversation about biological women, did I? If you count the post about someone dressing as something not being it, that didn't twist anything. It is true. How could it not be. I don't know if you are counting that as part of the 'biological woman' discussion though. If not, then I made no comment, so couldn't have twisted your words - as I say, I don't do that.

And others can decide about whether the comments about Stock were 'reasoned debate'. As I say, I completely disagree that the vitriolic comments were reasoned at all, but that's fine. As I said, I'm sure she's heard worse, and won't be crying into her tea in the unlikely event that she's reading this. Other readers can decide for themselves whether it was 'reasoned debate' or spite.

I don't think I accused you of twisting anything. I simply said things were twisted.

If it isn't reasonable to question the motives of anyone, or to question the narrative they have chosen, then free speech really has finished hasn't it? There are numerous articles and accounts of how Stock behaved, of course they are not in the mainstream media, but if you search for them you can find them, including the email Alison Phipps sent about the trans flags. Which when it appeared in the press had been cut to ensure it didn't contradict Stock's story.
It really is worth looking at other accounts of things besides those which appear in mainstream media.

I think the women who use any spaces should be free to decide who access these spaces.
Are you using women to mean AHF?

Which women should be free to decide who accesses these spaces?
Females who are afraid of men, females who have never had to share their safe spaces with males and would like that to continue, females who for religious reasons would have issues with males being in safe spaces?
How would you police it? Who would police it?
Why, if some men were not deceitful, would there be a need to police those who are? Why are females expected to accept this dishonesty or deceit and worse, accept that some women support the deceit?

And I vehemently oppose the idea that men can take any decision about a safe space for women.

Yes so do I.
But deceitful males/men who access female safe spaces are taking that decision for themselves. How do you propose to stop those males taking that decision.
It makes sense to take precautions.
Most shoppers don't shoplift, but everyone accepts that shops take precautions because of those who do.

Most airline passengers aren't terrorists, but everyone accepts that airlines take precautions because of those who are.

Most men cause no problem to anyone but everyone accepts that at least some precautions are necessary because of those who do.

Most people aren’t a danger to others late at night, but everyone accepts that it’s unwise for females we are encouraged to travel alone late at night because of those who are.

Most police are not a danger to females, but now it’s too late, we accept that there needs an investigation because some have proved to be so.

Most trans people cause no problem to anyone, ..... hmm, yes, it falls apart a bit there.

Correction
Most people aren’t a danger to others late at night, but everyone accepts that it’s unwise for females to travel alone late at night because of those who are.

Galaxy

So if some women dont consent to sharing a space with men, other women or men shouldnt be able to decide for them. They have said no. What other women are happy with is up to them but they cant enforce it on others. I wouldnt dream of telling you that you cant share a space with a man, crack on, but when it's a single sex space you cant decide for others. Its consent, you know some women are saying no and you carry on regardless. I am using a general you here.

But that is how democracy works. Decisions are taken on the basis of what the majority want. So if the majority of women want a space to be single sex it should be so. If some of the women are not happy with the decision then they can establish another space.
Are you really saying that if one woman wants a space to be single sex all the others have to agree with her? That's really enforcing ideas on others isn't it.?

Mollygo

^I think the women who use any spaces should be free to decide who access these spaces.^
Are you using women to mean AHF?

Which women should be free to decide who accesses these spaces?
Females who are afraid of men, females who have never had to share their safe spaces with males and would like that to continue, females who for religious reasons would have issues with males being in safe spaces?
How would you police it? Who would police it?
Why, if some men were not deceitful, would there be a need to police those who are? Why are females expected to accept this dishonesty or deceit and worse, accept that some women support the deceit?

And I vehemently oppose the idea that men can take any decision about a safe space for women.

Yes so do I.
But deceitful males/men who access female safe spaces are taking that decision for themselves. How do you propose to stop those males taking that decision.
It makes sense to take precautions.
Most shoppers don't shoplift, but everyone accepts that shops take precautions because of those who do.

Most airline passengers aren't terrorists, but everyone accepts that airlines take precautions because of those who are.

Most men cause no problem to anyone but everyone accepts that at least some precautions are necessary because of those who do.

Most people aren’t a danger to others late at night, but everyone accepts that it’s unwise for females we are encouraged to travel alone late at night because of those who are.

Most police are not a danger to females, but now it’s too late, we accept that there needs an investigation because some have proved to be so.

Most trans people cause no problem to anyone, ..... hmm, yes, it falls apart a bit there.

The law is clear Mollygo if the women using the space or facility would not do so if transwomen were present they can be banned. And like any other law the police would enforce that.

Which just about covers all the other stuff.

How is this majority voting going to work in changing rooms? A vote every 10 minutes if the client base changes. What about hospital wards, every time there's a new patient they have a new vote?

We cant be voting on consent it's not how it works. They are saying no. I am not enforcing my views on you, you are absolutely free to share spaces with men, as long as the men consent of course. But including men in single sex spaces removes that consent from women who due to many reasons do not want to share space with men.
As for create your own space, well ok we can do that again if we have to, we have done it before, but they would be single sex spaces which is what you seem to be complaining about.

Which, Glorianny puts us back right where I said. Females are faced with having to challenge deceitful males.
Males don’t like being challenged by females at the best of times. When they know they’re in the wrong, the chances of a violent response increase 100%.
So basically, you’re still saying females aren’t entitled to keep the spaces they’ve regarded as safe, because males might want to use them.
QED.

What is AHF, please? I tried Google but it didn't help.

Ailidh

What is AHF, please? I tried Google but it didn't help.

Adult Human Female.

... you probably got "Acute Heart Failure" from your Google search!

Sorry, Dickens is right. I meant Adult Human Female. Since some people use woman when referring to males, (male decision of what they should be allowed to do since 2004) I tend to use AHF which is the dictionary definition of woman.
When I see people saying Trans Women Are Women usually shortened to (TWAW) they’re usually using that to mean transwomen should be allowed in female safe spaces, I would also remind them of the truth
Trans Women Are Transwomen, because they are not female.

"If it isn't reasonable to question the motives of anyone, or to question the narrative they have chosen, then free speech really has finished hasn't it?" but when those of us who have been labelled GC in these threads ask questions, we're accused of demanding answers and/or hounding the poster being asked.

It'll be interesting to see what the courts make of this:

"A father has launched a last-minute legal action to stop his 'vulnerable' autistic son undergoing a sex-change operation next week.

The man, who does not want to be named, believes both the child and adult NHS gender services have failed to properly explore his 21-year-old son's 'fragile' mental health and how it impacts his decision-making.

His son is due to undergo 'vaginoplasty' surgery on Saturday, which involves removing male genitalia and creating female parts.

Aged 13, he began attending the scandal-hit Tavistock child gender clinic in London and was prescribed puberty-blocking drugs against his parents' wishes at 16.

Two years later he was transferred to an adult NHS gender clinic in north-west England before being referred for the vaginoplasty procedure when he was 19.

'We were just devastated when we heard he was getting surgery,' his father said.

He's been through the shambles that is the Tavistock and then on to the adult services, which I think is far less stringent.

'They were continually affirming him. I don't think the adult services have taken into account his autism and fragile mental health.

He had a lot of self-harm and at least one suicide attempt that we know of. We're convinced that the puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones actually made his mental health worse."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12156203/Fathers-ditch-legal-bid-stop-vulnerable-autistic-son-21-having-sex-change.html

I don't think I accused you of twisting anything. I simply said things were twisted.

But you did .

You
And (Your own favourite) Twisting what people say is not acceptable
Me
Show me where I have twisted, and I will respond. If not, please withdraw your ‘own personal favourite’ comment, as it is deeply unfair and insulting.

Your reply to that was that you had been taken out of context in the 'biological woman' part of the discussion, so given the context that your example was in reply to a request to show me where I had done it, I assumed that it was aimed at me. Maybe your own grasp of context is a bit shaky?

Demands to questions are often made by the same people on GN.
Are these 'same people' the same people as Some People? Why not grasp the nettle instead of the continual insinuations that all of the so-called 'gender critical' posters do it? We are individuals, not a herd, and these blanket accusations just cause ill feeling.

In case you missed it though, here is my earlier response to the fact that there are times when Many People do feel the need to remind others that there has been no answer to a specific question:
They are not demands. How do you think debate works? The idea is not that people come along, post a vague opinion and leave it at that. Someone else comes along and responds, either by agreeing, disagreeing or asking for more information, and the conversation continues. Someone just dropping in a quick insult and running is always going to be called on it. How can anyone respond to ‘She was a meanie and said bad things’ without knowing what they were, and where, and in what context, they were said?
Do you see things differently? What is your definition of ‘debate’?
Perhaps you could answer that, instead of repeating that Some People 'demand' answers?

Glorianny
But that is how democracy works. Decisions are taken on the basis of what the majority want. So if the majority of women want a space to be single sex it should be so.

So why go round and round with the ‘it’s up to women to police them’ argument?

I haven’t seen any evidence that the majority of females don’t want single sex spaces.
Are you now infiltrating into your statement the idea that because the majority of trans-women (males) want access to female spaces they should be allowed to use them?

Great post on Sat 03-Jun-23 22:50:21, Molly

And yes, it's interesting that the 'how will you police it?' questions are thrown at the women who don't feel safe. 'Deal with it or suffer' is the implication there.

The more sensible question, as you say, Molly is to ask the men who want to access women's spaces how they will ensure that doing so is no threat to women - but (crucially) where 'threat' is defined by women ourselves, not dismissed as irrelevant because what one women sees as a threat is not by a man, or another woman.

That daily fail article reads like father and adult child are estranged

Or it reads like the many similar cases relating to children with autism, children who have experienced trauma etc.

VioletSky

That daily fail article reads like father and adult child are estranged

good to see you posting this morning VS sorry you were unable to answer any of my questions about your post yesterday.