Cancel Culture or Free Speech

Part of the issue with Kathleen Stock, is that she worked at University of Sussex. A university that developed one of the UK's first queer theory departments, running both under and post grad. courses, with some of the UK's leading academics in this field working there.

She was out of place there. Had she been somewhere more traditional, she may not have had the level of notoriety she has come to have. As others have suggested, this was possibly not accidental on her part. It's certainly done her career no harm.

Some students are opposed to her views Glorianny which is of course their right, but no one has the right to try and silence those whose views they don't agree with or support.

I'm waiting for a reply too Molly. I don't understand why someone posts a comment of that nature if they're unable or unwilling to substantiate it. Doing so questions it's validity.

What harm is caused by stating a biological fact that we can't change our sex? We ask time and time again on these threads what rights the trans community are being denied, but never get an answer.

Trans men being socialised as women is a very good point Doodledog. Women tend to find non violent and often non confrontational ways of making their feelings and opinions known.

Surely being offended is subjective?

What one person finds offensive, someone else won't.

Who's the arbiter on what we should all find offensive or not?

Is there even any legal right not to be offended?

Why is it when the so called GC on these threads ask a question it's seen as a demand? Perhaps you could show me where someone has said to VS 'I demand you answer my question' Gagajo

Ahhh, demanding a reply. A classic gender critical response.

This is what we were talking about before - not sure if it was on this thread or another one. It's a classic example. M0nica is not 'demanding a reply' - she is asking for clarification of a comment that was dropped into a conversation as though it were a truth, but is not expanded on. How can this topic be debated if people do that (and VS does it all the time).

It is not a 'classic 'gender critical' response' either - it is simply normal discourse when something is being discussed. I don't understand why people asking for clarification is seen as 'hounding'.

"No more dead-kids" full stop, would be a better mantra

Isn't that a bit like responding "All lives Matter" when faced with the "Black Lives Matter" phrase? It's sort of dismissive if Trans kids are dying due to their feelings/beliefs.

That doesn't mean she doesn't believe what she says just that it has probably been financially valuable for her

Really? Do you think that the financial rewards (if they are that good) are worth the dangers she faces by speaking out?

I wouldn't argue with anybody who genuinely believes they can change sex any more than I would with somebody who believes in God or Allah, etc. They are entitled to their beliefs. Similarly, I would not want to deprive them of rights where it was not going to hurt anybody to respect their beliefs. Where there are ways where we can safely accommodate the use of spaces which have been traditionally same sex, I am happy for that to happen. Anywhere that genetically born women are physically unsafe or have their human rights impacted negatively by sharing those spaces is a no go area.

Smileless2012

Why is it when the so called GC on these threads ask a question it's seen as a demand? Perhaps you could show me where someone has said to VS 'I demand you answer my question' Gagajo

'I'm still waiting for a reply.' Is pretty firm on hounding someone for a response. Have we forgotten this is a forum people use for leisure?

Ahhh, demanding a reply. A classic gender critical response

No on so many levels.
Awaiting is not the same as demanding
Gender critical ?
How?
Classic - likewise how?.

Gagajos description of gender critical belief within the workplace is not accurate. It falls under the protected belief category. An employer who discriminated against someone because of that belief could face a legal case. As I say I work for a large local authority and dont hide the fact that I am gender critical.

I use it for leisure. I find people telling other people how to speak deeply stressful.

I don't think there is a legal right not to to be offended DL but I did find this about how not to take offence to what people say:-

Understand your feelings
Understand why someone is being offensive
Recognise constructive criticism
Recognise the effects of intoxicants
Learn to mediate
Expand your cultural horizons

I always thought that university was an ideal place to expand one's cultural horizons but am beginning to wonder.

Foxygloves

^Ahhh, demanding a reply. A classic gender critical response^

No on so many levels.
Awaiting is not the same as demanding
Gender critical ?
How?
Classic - likewise how?.

Classic in these forums. Angry demands for a response to a manipulated question that the person it is directed to doesn't want to spend time carefully formulating an answer to, knowing it is then just going to be attacked again.

This is the pattern.

"hounding someone for a response" !!! I didn't I was still waiting for a response GagaJo I said "I'm waiting for a reply too" so if you're going to quote me, please do so correctly.

GagaJo

Foxygloves

Ahhh, demanding a reply. A classic gender critical response

No on so many levels.
Awaiting is not the same as demanding
Gender critical ?
How?
Classic - likewise how?.

Classic in these forums. Angry demands for a response to a manipulated question that the person it is directed to doesn't want to spend time carefully formulating an answer to, knowing it is then just going to be attacked again.

This is the pattern.

No, more like it’s OK to sling insults willy nilly (can you say “willy” in this context?) but when challenged to substantiate them -and for the record I detected no anger in M0nica’s request - suddenly it’s La, la, la, can’t hear you. Too busy, CBA or possibly just can’t
If I may be so bold, I think your response Gagajo was what you might term “classic”.

Where is the angry demand? Where is the manipulated question? Please don't feel that answers to these questions are being demanded or that I'm hounding you GagaJo.

Answers would be appreciated but there's no pressure.

Smileless2012

I don't think there is a legal right not to to be offended DL but I did find this about how not to take offence to what people say:-

Understand your feelings
Understand why someone is being offensive
Recognise constructive criticism
Recognise the effects of intoxicants
Learn to mediate
Expand your cultural horizons

I always thought that university was an ideal place to expand one's cultural horizons but am beginning to wonder.

Having worked for the DWP and then Child Protection, I've probably developed a thick skin around insults and my finer feelings..🙄

But, generally, I don't mind about other people's opinions or lifestyle.

Not my circus, not my clowns.

I do object to anything impacting on my freedom to keep my rights though.

NanaDana

Still waiting for some concrete evidence which shows that Kathleen Stock's views are "hateful and intolerant". I suspect it's going to be a long wait. Also, to suggest that she is being "disingenuous" , as in "slightly dishonest, or not speaking the complete truth" (Cambridge dictionary) just won't wash. She is clearly sincere, honest and unambiguous about what she feels, and that's exactly what some people are unhappy about.. including the "book-burners" who want to close her down. Also to suggest that her stance may be about "making money" is a very cheap shot indeed, and is merely designed to cast unsupported aspersions. A desperate resorting to unwarranted innuendo adds nothing to a reasoned argument.

I wonder how many people would have bought or read her books had she simply discussed something quite rationally without being quite so vocal about her views? Not many I bet.
She could quite easily have discussed the subject, and the repercussions her views might have on others. She didn't.

icanhandthemback

No more dead-kids" full stop, would be a better mantra

Isn't that a bit like responding "All lives Matter" when faced with the "Black Lives Matter" phrase? It's sort of dismissive if Trans kids are dying due to their feelings/beliefs.

I take your point - there is the similarity (and I wasn't one of those who parroted the 'all lives matter' mantra because it entirely missed the point of BLM)

I made the observation in order to highlight what I believe is a damaging aspect of modern culture - which is the obsession with "looks" which seems to be drawing in youth at a very young age - when they don't have the maturity to cope with it. And to draw attention, again, to the the appalling lack of mental health services, especially for the young, where some have to wait months before any of their problems are even initially addressed. I was attempting to look at body dysmorphia and gender-identity as a 'whole' rather than as something separate.

This is an interesting view of the documentary. I thought it was OK, but these views so express my concerns about what is happening and how trans. issues are being used by the right wing I think it needs to be read, And he may be quite right, many of us are still stuck in 2018 and fail to grasp what young people know, inews.co.uk/opinion/channel-4s-gender-wars-fails-both-women-and-trans-people-while-missing-the-real-story-2371146

Sorry Glorianny but I don't understand your last post.

Are you saying that she hasn't written about this issue rationally? Why shouldn't she or anyone be vocal about their views on this issue; TRA's certainly are?

It doesn't seem to me that TRA's consider the repercussions their views might have on others, including their fellow trans.

Glorianny That article is behind a paywall, so may well not be available to most of us.

I couldn't access the link Glorianny; it came up momentarily.
What I did see was Kathleen Stock being referred to as someone against trans gender rights which is incorrect.

GagaJo

Foxygloves

Ahhh, demanding a reply. A classic gender critical response

No on so many levels.
Awaiting is not the same as demanding
Gender critical ?
How?
Classic - likewise how?.

Classic in these forums. Angry demands for a response to a manipulated question that the person it is directed to doesn't want to spend time carefully formulating an answer to, knowing it is then just going to be attacked again.

This is the pattern.

Hang on a minute. What was the 'manipulated question?

VS says:
From what I've read Stock seems to be now championing herself as a polite moderate in this debate but her past history says sadly otherwise and she has come across as intolerant and hateful, which led to this

She ( VS ) was asked what she thought KS had said in the past (by Namsnanny at 00:27:23), and then Riverwalk (at 07:19:05) asked when and where KS had been intolerant and hateful.

How are they 'manipulated questions'? They are both asking for clarification of something VS said herself - her words.

These accusations of people 'twisting', and 'manipulating' and 'hounding' really need to stop. They are attempts to smear the posters who dare to have a different opinion, and I, for one, strongly object to it. I am not a reporter of posts, as I think that it is better to show these tactics for what they are, but I am so fed up with it, as it happens on every thread on this subject.

That is the pattern, and it is very unfair.

Doodledog
These accusations of people 'twisting', and 'manipulating' and 'hounding' really need to stop. They are attempts to smear the posters who dare to have a different opinion, and I, for one, strongly object to it. I am not a reporter of posts, as I think that it is better to show these tactics for what they are, but I am so fed up with it, as it happens on every thread on this subject.

That is the pattern, and it is very unfair.

Well put, and true every time.

Many of those who are at the forefront of this debate in this country are left wing feminists, in fact at one stage the only party who was saying biological sex was important was the socialist party