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Into the abyss - NHS Consultants have voted for strike action

(138 Posts)
Casdon Tue 27-Jun-23 16:38:45

Senior doctors in England have voted to strike in overwhelming numbers for the first time in the row over pay.

More than 24,000 consultants in England voted in the British Medical Association’s ballot (a turnout of 71%), with 20,741 (86%) voting for industrial action. The ballot closed earlier on Tuesday.

It means that hospital consultants are set to go on strike for two days from 20 July.

The BMA’s consultants committee urged members to vote in favour of strike action after talks with ministers about restituting pay levels, which have declined in real terms by 35% since 2008-09, broke down.

Courtesy of the Guardian
The government really must sort this out urgently, it’s a different level of serious.

DaisyAnneReturns Thu 29-Jun-23 06:15:35

GrannyGravy13

foxie48

Not saying it is GG13 but doctors are much better paid and have better working conditions, I've not said anything about the quality of the patient care.

Depends on where they work and the demographics.

House prices, food, clothing and particularly footwear are rising.

There is no middle ground High Street as we have in the U.K.

The Government has brought in regulations on who can buy property/land to try and slow the housing prices from rising.

Might look good on paper but the reality is somewhat different.

GrannyGravy I think anecdotal experience, though interesting, does not tell you how a whole nation lives. It is often called "the evidence of one".

My son and his family also live in Australia and I think his "evidence" would diametrically oppose that of your families. However, much of that may depend on income and opportunity, just as it would do here.

I don't actually understand what you mean when you say there is no "middle ground high street" so can't comment on that with regard to health care.

Nor can I guess what you mean by the introduction of laws regarding property. As far as I am aware, as a none national you cannot buy property without permission and you have to show that is going to be your residence. That seems a good idea to me.

Equally, I think, though I could not give you chapter and verse, that where an employer runs the pension scheme for the mandatory superannuation pension scheme , no more than a third of that can be invested in property. But again, that seems like a good safeguarding measure.

Making another country your home will never suit 100% of the people who try it.

DaisyAnneReturns Thu 29-Jun-23 06:38:45

Germanshepherdsmum

They are being paid by the taxpayer and they always knew that would be the case unless they were able to move into private healthcare or general practice or move abroad. They don’t however have the freedom to move to another employer that lawyers, accountants and bankers and they knew that from the outset. They made that choice.

There is no reason and it makes no sense in an international market, for people to be paid less just because they are employed by the government. If people can afford to pay directly for healthcare or for health care insurance, then they are able to pay higher taxes for the mutual system we were once so proud of.

I do think this is one case were an hypothecated tax would be acceptable to most. People are mislead if they believe NI was intended to cover health care. It wasn't. A specific tax paid from the start of work to death would enable us to restructure to meet present day needs. Personal taxation allowance and banding could be raised to off-set this.

Germanshepherdsmum Thu 29-Jun-23 08:50:28

Are you suggesting that the taxpayer should be paying doctors the same as bankers and City lawyers, whose remuneration is decided by market forces?

GrannyGravy13 Thu 29-Jun-23 09:02:15

DaisyAnneReturns

My Aussie family & friends are third generation Aussies.

They are in a variety of jobs from Politics, Healthcare, Finance and at one point the patriarch owned the majority of shares in one of the most successful Aussie Rules Footie Team.

They have a broad view of life in Australia today, but hey ho you know better.

karmalady Thu 29-Jun-23 09:09:08

Their union is allowing the consultants to do private work on strike days

Perhaps they need to top up their pension pots, now that lifetime allowance has been changed

Germanshepherdsmum Thu 29-Jun-23 09:40:20

The lifetime allowance has been scrapped, to their benefit.

At least private patients won’t be having their appointments cancelled then, just those reliant on the NHS. Such a relief.

GrannyGravy13 Thu 29-Jun-23 11:09:56

karmalady

Their union is allowing the consultants to do private work on strike days

Perhaps they need to top up their pension pots, now that lifetime allowance has been changed

Wow!!!!

The optics of that is not going to help their cause.

DaisyAnneReturns Thu 29-Jun-23 14:40:28

GrannyGravy13

DaisyAnneReturns

My Aussie family & friends are third generation Aussies.

They are in a variety of jobs from Politics, Healthcare, Finance and at one point the patriarch owned the majority of shares in one of the most successful Aussie Rules Footie Team.

They have a broad view of life in Australia today, but hey ho you know better.

That still makes each of your relatives and each of mine, one voice, one point of view and none of those have much bearing on consultants striking here other than Australia being an attraction to some when it comes to leaving UK.

I was more interested in the new regulations on land and property and how it might affect doctors.

DaisyAnneReturns Thu 29-Jun-23 14:53:38

Germanshepherdsmum

Are you suggesting that the taxpayer should be paying doctors the same as bankers and City lawyers, whose remuneration is decided by market forces?

No. GSM. Why would I say that? I do believe "the labourer is worthy of his hire". That mean that whoever employs them, they should get the going rate.

In this case the rate is set by an international market. As their skills are universal this could be more than a City lawyer. The only thing stopping the doctors, nurses etc., getting the "market rate" is this Conservative Government.

Germanshepherdsmum Thu 29-Jun-23 15:02:04

More than a City lawyer is a very hefty sum. That doesn’t mean the lawyer is worth it but it’s what the market is willing to pay. What the taxpayer is willing to pay is a very different matter I think.

GrannyGravy13 Thu 29-Jun-23 15:05:00

DaisyAnneReturns

GrannyGravy13

DaisyAnneReturns

My Aussie family & friends are third generation Aussies.

They are in a variety of jobs from Politics, Healthcare, Finance and at one point the patriarch owned the majority of shares in one of the most successful Aussie Rules Footie Team.

They have a broad view of life in Australia today, but hey ho you know better.

That still makes each of your relatives and each of mine, one voice, one point of view and none of those have much bearing on consultants striking here other than Australia being an attraction to some when it comes to leaving UK.

I was more interested in the new regulations on land and property and how it might affect doctors.

I thought points of view were allowed on discussion forums?

Perhaps you could let me know what I can and cannot post?

MaizieD Thu 29-Jun-23 16:07:25

Germanshepherdsmum

Are you suggesting that the taxpayer should be paying doctors the same as bankers and City lawyers, whose remuneration is decided by market forces?

The way things are going, with NHS doctors leaving in droves to work abroad it looks very likely that the government will have to pay the market rate.

There is no problem with the govt finding the money as taxation doesn't fund spending and state investment in the NHS supports economic activity to a multiplier of at least 2.5. It would actually contribute significantly to growth. Particularly as few other entities seem interested in investing in the UK.

And don't forget that most of the money the state pays out returns to it via taxation wink

ronib Thu 29-Jun-23 16:09:49

Have you got any figures to support your claims MaizieD? It is a fascinating area ….

Casdon Thu 29-Jun-23 16:15:23

Yes, here you are ronib.
www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/documents/migration-decisions-research-report_pdf-94525731.pdf

Germanshepherdsmum Thu 29-Jun-23 16:16:36

Taxation may not fund spending, but it surely follows on does it not?
I believe many doctors leave the UK for a better quality of life, not necessarily for money. Giving the doctors a vast pay increase will not cure the ills of the NHS.

ronib Thu 29-Jun-23 16:18:14

No Casdon - the figures that show the viability of paying consultants the going rate? £200k per annum is it? For a 25 hour NHS week?

MaizieD Thu 29-Jun-23 16:21:46

ronib

Have you got any figures to support your claims MaizieD? It is a fascinating area ….

Which claim?

MaizieD Thu 29-Jun-23 16:26:13

ronib

No Casdon - the figures that show the viability of paying consultants the going rate? £200k per annum is it? For a 25 hour NHS week?

Sorry, didn't twig.

Paying consultants the 'going rate' is perfectly viable. What makes you think it might not be?

So is paying the other NHS doctors and the nurses.

ronib Thu 29-Jun-23 16:28:07

MaizieD I assumed you had worked out the running costs of the Nhs plus how it was going to be paid? I do find you very confusing sometimes…,

Casdon Thu 29-Jun-23 16:31:06

MaizieD

ronib

No Casdon - the figures that show the viability of paying consultants the going rate? £200k per annum is it? For a 25 hour NHS week?

Sorry, didn't twig.

Paying consultants the 'going rate' is perfectly viable. What makes you think it might not be?

So is paying the other NHS doctors and the nurses.

Neither did I, it was ambiguous. If you spent some time doing your own research ronib, you’d know that consultants are paid on a sessional basis, they only get paid by the NHS for the hours they work for the NHS.

cc Thu 29-Jun-23 16:32:54

karmalady

Shocking and very greedy behaviour by the consultants

I agree, they had a massive pay increase from the Blair governement, as did GP's I believe. Now they want to hold us to ransom? I wonder what proportion are also taking on private work.
I had my cateracts done on the NHS at a private hospital. The reason I chose to have it done there was because the wait was months shorter. Yet the doctors who were doing the work were the same people at both private hospitals as at the local main NHS hospital. I understand that they have contracts with private hospitals and that the doctors earn extra for the work they do for the NHS there, even though it is during the normal working week. Why?

ronib Thu 29-Jun-23 16:36:33

Casdon I am not claiming to be able to pay for the whole Nhs budget in the grand scheme of MaizieD’s thinking. I can’t even begin to research this topic as I wouldn’t know where to begin remembering that taxation doesn’t fund spending. Please some concrete examples would help.

Germanshepherdsmum Thu 29-Jun-23 16:36:46

Tell me, Maizie, if we were to pay consultants £200k and give junior doctors a substantial rise, say the 35% they are demanding, would taxation not have to be increased in due course as a result?

Casdon Thu 29-Jun-23 16:48:15

ronib

Casdon I am not claiming to be able to pay for the whole Nhs budget in the grand scheme of MaizieD’s thinking. I can’t even begin to research this topic as I wouldn’t know where to begin remembering that taxation doesn’t fund spending. Please some concrete examples would help.

Starting Point, this took me about 30 seconds to google.
Top of the scale full time consultant pay is just under £120,00 (2022 rate, pay award obviously not yet agreed for 2023).

If they get 35% it will go up to £174,000. Just to confirm that’s not £200,000 for 25 hours work?

ronib Thu 29-Jun-23 16:50:29

Casdon I was assuming employer’s contributions taking it to £200k