Time to admit that privatisation of national utilities isn’t working?

Absolutely right Callistemon.

Norah. Note the comma. 'emptied and refilled' refers only to paddling pools, and one of the water companies was on the news and in the papers telling parents that you did not need to empty the paddling pool at the end of each day it is used. If it has a cover put over it, it can be used for several days before it needs to be emptied and refilled.

Well - there's something called ethical investment, and they need - to use an appropriate term for the subject - to clean their acts up.

I agree this is a massive discussion but much needed.

Where’s your pension invested? Do you know?

Indeed.

Thank you, noted comma.

We cover the dog pool, the very large children's paddling pool. We maintain daily and don't empty, except end of season.

I attempted saying that.

Real pools? Proper maintenance required, years between emptying.

Wyllow3

Well - there's something called ethical investment, and they need - to use an appropriate term for the subject - to clean their acts up.

I agree this is a massive discussion but much needed.

Yes, I had an ethical ISA

But do people know what, for example, their pension funds invest in and do they have any say in this?
Or a general ISA? Or an endowment policy?

Quite a lot of info and policy of funds available to me, GSM. just been googling at length.

That is an interesting question you ask GSM. I immediately turned to the box file on a shelf behind my desk for the Pensions Update booklet that my pension provider sends out each year and in the past has included a breakdown of the destination of its investments..

This time the information is not there. Everything has gone online and I haven't yet accessed the pension site online. It gives the broad brush description of sectors it is invested in - and these include infrastructure, which I would assume includes companies like Thames Water, although not TW itself.

The University Staff Pension Scheme owns about 20% of TW, although it is a much smaller proportion of their total investment funds.

Once you have bought a private pension or converted AVCs into an additional pension then it cannot be changed.

By the way, in regards to water usage, pools can be easily cleaned daily with a scrubber on a pole (window apparatus) sachets added, covered. No need to wastefully empty whatsoever.

Lathyrus

Mmm, I think I get what you’re saying about debts don’t count on the balance sheet for tax purposes.

I don’t think I really see how it works in terms of payouts to shareholders though. I mean they get money that isn’t really there, I think.

Surely it means that it’s very easy for a Board to borrow enormous sums to make it look as if a business is really profitable when, in reality, it is insolvent. Then they make big dividend and bonus payments and go bust.

That’s tough on their suppliers who are at the bottom of the insolvency queue.

To clear up some of points, I hope simply:

A Profit and Loss Account (P & L) is a summary of a company's trading throughout it's accounting period - ie sales, fees, direct costs, indirect costs and expenses. It will also include depreciation.

A Balance Sheet (BS) is a snapshot of the state of the company's financial affairs as at the year end. This will include debtors (unpaid sales invoices) and creditors (unpaid purchase invoices and loans made to the company)

Purchases of capital items - equipment, property etc. are not allowable expenses. These items are depreciated annually and the depreciation is deducted in the company's accounts. Depreciation is meant to provide funds for the replacement of those assets. It is added back in the tax computations. Thus, if the profit after depreciation of £10k, is £100k then the taxable profit is £110k.

The company can claim capital allowances against the cost of their assets at varying rates. Thus, supposing the company in my example had spent £110k on equipment then they could claim the annual investment allowance of 100% and there have no tax to pay.

At 31 March 2021 TW had a net loss of £258.1 m. At 1 April 2020 they had retained earnings of £2016.3 m. If you deduct the loss from the second figure, you get £1758.2 m. If you then deducted the retained earnings as at 31 March 2021 of £1604.6 m you get a difference of £34.6 m. This will be taxation and dividends. That is how they manage to pay dividends, despite making a loss, from retained earnings brought forward from previous year.

TW has a very complicated financial set up including a company called Thames Water Utilities Holdings PLC. It has an accumulated loss of £666.7 m and on paper is insolvent. There will be a link between these two companies I think, unless it's through the 1/3 company. I don't have the expertise or the time to delve further.

I would just add that most companies operate with form of borrowing. You just have to think of the line,certainly for manufacturing companies who have to pay their workforce and their suppliers before they can sell their product and be paid.

I used to work (in the dim and distant past) for one of the top 3 accountancy practices in the UK. They ran on an overdraft and each December they did not partners' quarterly profit shares and delayed suppliers payments until 1 January or a little bit late. The reason being is that they had show their bank that on one day a year the bank account balance was a debit (ie was not overdrawn)

If you want to see TW's accounts for 2020/21 here's the links

www.thameswater.co.uk/media-library/home/about-us/investors/our-results/previous-reports/2020-21/annual-report.pdf

ttps://www.thameswater.co.uk/media-library/home/about-us/investors/debt-investors/thames-water-utilities/thames-water-utilities-holdings/annual-report-2021-22.pdf

M0nica

vegansrock I think it rains far more in Ireland and presumably its geology makes it easier to access.

Setting aside those with a need for a lot of water, because their families are large, disabled or incontinent and they are on UC. At the other end of the spectrum there are those with swimming pools, or large paddling pools, emptied and refilled every day, or who spent hours everyday watering their gardens with sprinklers to keep the grass perfect.

When water is a scarce commodity that needs to be used carefully. The best way to do this is to make some charge for water. Even before water meters, many water companies put a supplement on your bill if you used a hose or sprinkler.

In the UK, where water is scarce, we are always being encouraged to economise on water, shower don't bath, only use washing machines and dishwashers when full etc etc and it is noticeable these days, when water is on meters, there are far fewer people using sprinklers every day to keep their front lawns immaculate.

M0nica
"In the UK, where water is scarce, we are always being encouraged to economise on water, shower don't bath, only use washing machines and dishwashers when full etc etc and it is noticeable these days, when water is on meters, there are far fewer people using sprinklers every day to keep their front lawns immaculate".
There's a recent article which I accesses through a SAGA newsletter, stating that many showers actually use more water than those taking baths. Apparently this is not just "power showers" but simply long showers - they suggest that 10 minutes isn't out of the ordinary.
www.exceptional.com/homes/home-improvement/bath-vs-shower/
I was surprised to read this, though pleased as I much prefer baths.

M0nica

That is an interesting question you ask GSM. I immediately turned to the box file on a shelf behind my desk for the Pensions Update booklet that my pension provider sends out each year and in the past has included a breakdown of the destination of its investments..

This time the information is not there. Everything has gone online and I haven't yet accessed the pension site online. It gives the broad brush description of sectors it is invested in - and these include infrastructure, which I would assume includes companies like Thames Water, although not TW itself.

The University Staff Pension Scheme owns about 20% of TW, although it is a much smaller proportion of their total investment funds.

I'm a USS pensioner, though I only have a small pension, and was horrified to learn this the other day. USS have had a very poor investment record in the past and I'm glad that I'm already drawing my pension as future pensioners could well be affected.

I’m afraid you’re affected by unethical investments even though you’re drawing your pension, as am I. Nothing I can do now. Just bank the money and hope things improve.

cc I am a bather but compromise by only having a bath every other day.