Gender neutral toilets in todays news!

Doodledog yes I know.
I have even posted the link to tic-tok above so people could actually see it.

I just said it was being linked to the cat litter issue in America.
... This was a comment that I probably shouldn't have made here - but the whole thing going mad and the "conflation" and "running away with things" and "taking things out of context" by the media in particular and then chinese-whispers by people who didn't go back to the original source seemed to all be linked.

I personally think the teacher was a bit bull-headed frankly but it is still not as it has been described (especially if you hear what went before).

I had no intention to hijack the Gender neutral toilets thread.

Apologies if I have done this.

Ah, I see.

It was the idea that the conversation between the teacher and the child was ‘fake’ that I wanted to make clear is untrue. It was real, regardless of whether there is a cat-identifying child in that particular school or not, however much the trans lobby would like to pretend otherwise. They are responsible for the idea that this is all a media construct- it isn’t. The conversation did happen.

I have no idea about what happened in America, but very much doubt that the incidents are linked in any way, really.

No. There was a conversation. You're right - the one I posted above:

www.tiktok.com/@commonlycensored/video/7246038839947529499

But not really about the cat/girl - it was more about how many genders there are

So what is the thing you were saying was fake? I am confused now

What does "not really about the cat/girl" mean NotSpaghetti?

There was a conversation (real and undisputed) between a teacher and two girls, and this was recorded, presumably because the girl was expecting to need back-up as her point of view would be shouted down.

The teacher clearly had half baked ideas about so-called 'gender', claiming that intersex is a gender. The girl referred to someone identifying as a cat, and said that she had a right to say that this person is not actually a cat, but a human, and was told that her views were despicable, she should go to a different school, and would be reported to the head for expressing them.

What is debatable is whether there is an actual child in that particular school who identifies as a cat. The Head (or a spokesperson) says not, which may or may not be to protect a vulnerable child. We don't know one way or the other. But that is not the point. The point is that there is no freedom of speech around so-called 'gender' issues in that school, and the teacher was way out of line in the way she tried to gaslight the girl and bully her into denying the evidence of her eyes.

The element of doubt about a small and irrelevant part of the whole was pounced on by the trans lobby with a Gotcha! (sound familiar?) and used to suggest that this is all 'political correctness gone mad', that people have been 'fooled', that it was all fake and so on. The resulting smokescreen deliberately obfuscates the reality, which is that children are being cowed into compliance with the Stonewall agenda, and the conversation is/was not 'fake'.

I’m confused too.

The tiktok link shows how it’s grown.

But the original recording of pupils being called despicable still stands.
Or are you saying that was faked?

I'm still confused about what point NotSpaghetti is making, but I think the bigger problem is that there will be a lot of people who genuinely believe that the conversation was fake, because there are those with a particular agenda who are saying so. I've seen it on here.

Nobody likes to think that they have been duped, and many people do like to see those who think differently politically exposed as dupes, so the fact that politicians and other people had commented on the case gave a perfect opportunity to shout them down, too. It's a double whammy - repeating the 'it's fake' accusations shows how much better informed the repeater is (or thinks they are), and lets them point out that those with opposing beliefs are 'jumping on a bandwagon' or just easily fooled.

The joke (such as it is) is on them, of course, and their sense of superiority short-lived, but not everyone will hear the part of the story that makes that clear.

Yes, if you post”It’s fake” then those that want to believe it, will believe it.

The same goes for those who think it’s true, of course.

How odd that we have returned to an era where nothing can be trusted except our own experiences.

I’m still confused 😕

Great post @ 10.02 Doodledog. As you say the only disputable issue here is whether or not there is a pupil at this school identifying as a cat.

Could the school have denied this to protect a vulnerable pupil? It's a possibility and would also protect the school from any backlash if it was accepting a child identifying as a cat and supporting that child by allowing certain 'cat' behaviour.

It's important to take not of the fact that the school has not said that the recorded incident with this teacher has been faked.

I don't think the cat issue is all that important. I do think what is evident if you listen more carefully to the recording is that there has been some sort of issue between the girls doing the recording and another pupil. The teacher plainly says "she" is writing a statement and "you" (the girls) will be asked to write one. The girls (and they are clever) manage to turn the debate away from their own actions and onto a more general discussion. It would be interesting to know what had gone on beforehand.

And the school may well be protecting a transgender child and the girls in question. I doubt if those girls have taken any account of the abuse they might receive if they were identified as targeting a transgender child.

Of course a transgender child should be protected from abuse but saying that a boy can't be a girl and a girl can't be a boy is a fact, not abusive.

Girls at school should not have to accept a transgender boy whose identifying as girl into their toilets and changing rooms. If schools are going to accept transgender children and want their school mates to accept them too, then they need to provide totally separate toilet and changing room facilities.

Smileless2012

What does "not really about the cat/girl" mean NotSpaghetti?

If you listen /watch you will see it's the end of a (heated) conversation where gender was the issue, the cat issue is not central to the argument.
The conversation was really focused on the genitalia/gender "debate".

Smileless2012

Great post @ 10.02 Doodledog. As you say the only disputable issue here is whether or not there is a pupil at this school identifying as a cat.

Could the school have denied this to protect a vulnerable pupil? It's a possibility and would also protect the school from any backlash if it was accepting a child identifying as a cat and supporting that child by allowing certain 'cat' behaviour.

It's important to take not of the fact that the school has not said that the recorded incident with this teacher has been faked.

Yes, as I said, the Head should very well have been protecting a vulnerable child, and I think that's absolutely fair enough.

Glorianny I agree that the fact that this was recorded suggests that the girls were expecting to need to back up their side of the story, as I said upthread. That is not a great indication that the relationship with the teacher was good, or that the girls could expect their views to be respected. The teacher has a right to disagree, but the role of an educator is to explore issues, not to call children names or to suggest that differing views are despicable.

Also, the 'fake' accusations are very disingenuous, I think. It's a classic 'Gotcha!' that ignores the rest of the story, and it is very important that this is not allowed to happen. The 'cat' element is probably about newspapers looking for an eye-catching story, but the story as a whole is indicative of the shutting down of free speech (and a right to an opinion) that has crept into our schools and other institutions in the name of 'inclusivity'.

Doodledog the "fake" was that the conversation was about identifying as a cat. It was not. This was a media manipulation.

I just thought the way that "everyone" including politicians jumped on it and made it about identifying as a cat was worth comment.

My mistake obviously. I'm not "invested" in this. I should have picked a different word.
I'm hoping it's clearer now what I meant.

I am sorry again that this has become about cat identity instead of toilets - which I prefer to be either women's toilets or individual WCs as you find with disabled ones. I am not a fan of "gender neutral" unless they are an extra.

Glorianny

And the school may well be protecting a transgender child and the girls in question. I doubt if those girls have taken any account of the abuse they might receive if they were identified as targeting a transgender child.

All pupils should be protected. They should certainly be protected from teachers who call them despicable and openly criticise their parents and home life. She called a child’s mother “sad”)

The girls repeatedly said it was their opinion and asked that it should be respected and the teacher repeatedly said her opinion was fact and they should leave the school if they didn’t agreed with her.

These children were not protected by the school. They were shamefully bullied. This conversation was wrong on so many levels.

It’s a great pity if the headline grabbing cat issue detracts from the way the teacher behaved and whether the school takes action on dealing with bullying.

That's fair enough, NotSpaghetti. I wasn't singling out your posts as being part of the 'fake' accusations, or arguing with you in particular. The accusations are all over the place, including on threads on here, and I do think it's important to look at the story as a whole.

Having said that (and I think that in this case the papers have picked up on the 'furry' thing to sell copies), conversations with practising teachers or a glance at letters pages and discussion boards show that animal identities are happening in schools, and also that there are staff who are so invested in 'inclusion' that they leapt to the defence of the (possibly hypothetical) one in this case.

And yes to all of that, Lathyrus. We cross posted, but I agree with both of your posts.

Lathyrus

It’s a great pity if the headline grabbing cat issue detracts from the way the teacher behaved and whether the school takes action on dealing with bullying.

Exactly.

Though as Glorianny says there is clearly a back-story of something going on between the girls and someone else (that was probably rather nasty).

NotSpaghetti

Lathyrus

It’s a great pity if the headline grabbing cat issue detracts from the way the teacher behaved and whether the school takes action on dealing with bullying.

Exactly.

Though as Glorianny says there is clearly a back-story of something going on between the girls and someone else (that was probably rather nasty).

There’s no indication there was “something going on between girls”.

The conversation is about an opinion expressed within a lesson not an incident. A transgender student may objected or been offended by that opinion but that doesn’t constitute something “nasty”.

Or perhaps the nastiness came from those who are pro gender choices and knew the teacher would add her authority to their bullying of those who disagreed.

We don’t know what else has gone on. Only what is clearly recorded.

A boy has been arrested by police investigating reports of serious sexual assaults in a gender neutral toilet at a school.
The fact that the teacher was in the wrong has already been established.
More worrying in the light of the OP, is if a teacher stands up and says gender neutral toilets are not OK and that they leave girls at risk of harm, loss of dignity etc, would they be sacked too?

They might be if they took the job knowing that's the school's ethos Molly.

Lathyrus

NotSpaghetti

Lathyrus

It’s a great pity if the headline grabbing cat issue detracts from the way the teacher behaved and whether the school takes action on dealing with bullying.

Exactly.

Though as Glorianny says there is clearly a back-story of something going on between the girls and someone else (that was probably rather nasty).

There’s no indication there was “something going on between girls”.

The conversation is about an opinion expressed within a lesson not an incident. A transgender student may objected or been offended by that opinion but that doesn’t constitute something “nasty”.

Or perhaps the nastiness came from those who are pro gender choices and knew the teacher would add her authority to their bullying of those who disagreed.

We don’t know what else has gone on. Only what is clearly recorded.

Then listen right to the end. The teacher says "They are now writing a statement. I would imagine that you will be asked to write one as well" If you know anything about education something has obviously happened before the recording. Pupils are not asked to write statements unless there has been an incident, usually a bullying incident.
The girls are very clever and the teacher doesn't handle things well. Instead of focussing on the incident she is led very. craftily down the garden path and into a discussion there was no necessity to have. The reason for bullying, abusing or disrespecting another pupil is irrelevant. The girls can believe what they like, they cannot upset another child by using their personal beliefs against that child.