Fawcett Society's Victory for Women

maddyone

One of the things we, as the general public, can do, is vote with our feet and our money. So we don’t go on holiday to states where women’s rights are few, or indeed, human rights are few. We have never been to Dubai for example nor any Arab state unless you count Turkey, but I don’t count them, and anyway that’s a secular state. But it’s a fine line isn’t it, because some countries need the trade to develop. Nonetheless I don’t suppose Afghanistan will be missing our holiday trade since no one has a burning desire to holiday there, and so we are left with nothing, we can do nothing. Only our state can apply sanctions, that’s the most that can be done.

Turkey has one of the worst human rights records in the world. It may appear as a secular westernised country but it really isn't.
www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/turkey-imprisoned-journalists-and-human-rights-defenders-risk-coronavirus-must?utm_source=google&utm_medium=grant&utm_campaign=AWA_GEN_coronavirus-dynamic-search-ads&utm_content=&gclid=CjwKCAjw44mlBhAQEiwAqP3eViJzAMpu9CtNQw1Cw5xSIrv22AYkUx2j0m9bT8JtMGcxZTiz--2-6RoCaQcQAvD_BwE

That's a good point Glorianny although there maybe women here in the UK who are forced by their family to comply with cultural tradition.

No one should be abused and ridiculed for wearing them.

Women should wear what they want to wear. Full stop.

That’s exactly what I’m trying to say, but about single sex toilets. Expecting the removal of single sex toilets just because some people don’t find it acceptable instead of providing unisex toilets in addition is restrictive.

Mollygo

That’s exactly what I’m trying to say, but about single sex toilets. Expecting the removal of single sex toilets just because some people don’t find it acceptable instead of providing unisex toilets in addition is restrictive.

Yes, and the removal of single sex facilities is obviously detrimental to women whose religious beliefs preclude sharing them with men, which is why I can't reconcile the insistence on doing so with feminism.

No time for the sexist, ignorant views of a boor like Clarkson. Vile man.

I always think that everyone should ignore Clarkson, like a naughty toddler. He just does it for attention, and would probably stop if people just rolled their collective eyes and left him to it.

The trouble is that there are (some) men who think he 'just says what others are thinking', so wouldn't join in the ignoring.

Some women choose to wear the hijab. In the UK wearing it is a personal choice no one is forcing women to do it. Expecting them to remove it because you don't find it acceptable is just as restrictive as insisting they wear one.

You do like to jump to conclusions, don't you?
I don't see any mention in my post of me saying that I don't find wearing the hijab acceptable.

I am saying that women here who wear hijabs should remove them as a means of protest to show solidarity with women in Afghanistan who do not have the freedom to choose, and suffer appalling treatment if they object.

eazybee

^Some women choose to wear the hijab. In the UK wearing it is a personal choice no one is forcing women to do it. Expecting them to remove it because you don't find it acceptable is just as restrictive as insisting they wear one.^

You do like to jump to conclusions, don't you?
I don't see any mention in my post of me saying that I don't find wearing the hijab acceptable.

I am saying that women here who wear hijabs should remove them as a means of protest to show solidarity with women in Afghanistan who do not have the freedom to choose, and suffer appalling treatment if they object.

If you don't understand that asking women to do that is just as restrictive and unacceptable as insisting that they do wear it, you simply don't understand personal choice. I notice you failed to reproduce the part of my post about women in the UK being subjected to abuse BECAUSE they wear the hijab.
Why should a woman do something she finds unacceptable because men are making other women do any thing?

Why should a woman do something she finds unacceptable because men are making women do anything why indeed Glorianny.

There is a problem for some women that the men in the family insist that their women wear the hijib. We should not assume that all women wear it because they want to because unfortunately that is not true for all women.
I do find it difficult when I see children aged five or six wearing hijabs. Children do not need to cover themselves for any reason in my opinion. They are not sexual objects and nor are they mature enough to be making a religious choice.

maddyone

There is a problem for some women that the men in the family insist that their women wear the hijib. We should not assume that all women wear it because they want to because unfortunately that is not true for all women.
I do find it difficult when I see children aged five or six wearing hijabs. Children do not need to cover themselves for any reason in my opinion. They are not sexual objects and nor are they mature enough to be making a religious choice.

Of course it isn't a choice for all women. However asking those who are dominated by the men in their family to remove their hijab is just as unreasonable. Doing such a thing might cause the men to abuse them even more.

Of course it would and actually I didn’t suggest they should remove their hijabs.

Smileless2012

^Why should a woman do something she finds unacceptable because men are making women do anything^ why indeed Glorianny.

Including sharing toilets with men, because men think they should have to do so.
Absolutely Glorianny!

Well said Molly.

Doodledog, I was interested in your change of opinion of Amnesty International. I hadn't noticed anything untoward. I will though have a look at Freedom from Torture, thanks.

OMG this toilet obsession is taking over. Think I'm going to count how many times I have to use a toilet which is shared by men. Let's see on recent holiday, on train, on plane, in at least 3 cafes. What do you do if you want a women only one? Use a she-wee????

Glorianny

OMG this toilet obsession is taking over. Think I'm going to count how many times I have to use a toilet which is shared by men. Let's see on recent holiday, on train, on plane, in at least 3 cafes. What do you do if you want a women only one? Use a she-wee????

Like the obsession with cats and teachers on different threads, it’s mentioned because it’s important.
It wasn’t important until males started accessing female toilets whilst claiming to be women, but by their actions making it perfectly clear that they were men.
Those were the days.
If you want to count your toilet visits . . . that could really be counted as an obsession.

Mollygo

Glorianny

OMG this toilet obsession is taking over. Think I'm going to count how many times I have to use a toilet which is shared by men. Let's see on recent holiday, on train, on plane, in at least 3 cafes. What do you do if you want a women only one? Use a she-wee????

Like the obsession with cats and teachers on different threads, it’s mentioned because it’s important.
It wasn’t important until males started accessing female toilets whilst claiming to be women, but by their actions making it perfectly clear that they were men.
Those were the days.
If you want to count your toilet visits . . . that could really be counted as an obsession.

I just wondered Mollygo what all those demanding women only toilets they felt safe in did on journeys or when there weren't any. I would imagine they use the same one as men. So there's the solution. No segregated toilets, all mixed, opening out into public areas, with wash basin inside. Problem solved!

Total thread hijack then

Sad that there are those who are only interested in what's important to them (something they can argue over usually) and can't stay on topic working towards resolving an important issue

Sorry glorianny

Hopefully it gets back on track

The subject of public toilets only arose because the feelings of Muslim women were being discussed. The question "Why should a woman do something she finds unacceptable because men are making other women do any thing?" led on to asking why Muslim women should have to share all spaces with men, when they really don't want to.
Single cubicles such as those on trains are not shared spaces, larger facilities like those in schools are the ones that are becoming shared spaces.
The two are not really comparable.

Oh, and threads do wander from the op from time to time.

VioletSky🤣🤣🤣🤣
You should see the thread about gender neutral toilets. That strayed onto a totally different subject and if I’m not mistaken, posters happily contribute to the diversion.

Thinking of modest dress and hijabs my observation (I pass through an area where lots of Muslims live everyday and also am a gym member of a very multi cultural gym.)

My observation, and discussions, reveal a wide range of views and levels of modest dressing. From the traditional black to the very pretty colored trouser and dress outfits ( I’ve forgotten their name) and floaty headscarves.
I was intrigued to see 3 girls do their swimming class in modest swimwear, but others not. In the gym itself adults do ‘variety’. I’ve never asked if anything was forced on women but definitely feel it’s often a matter of what the individual is comfortable with and how it matches their own religious values. (As I hear the younger women chat about clothes and so on I do feel it’s partly a generational thing, but clearly there are a group where males do impose codes! )

Also reflecting that being women generally we are certainly not without pressures on how to dress, whole complex codes sort of taken for granted, as well as sometime coercion from some men, but hopefully boiling down to the same, ‘what I’m comfy with’.

Sharing a toilet, ie men and women using the same single occupancy facilities, that only admits one person at a time is something I'm sure the vast majority, if not all of us have done at some time. On a plane or a train, just like you have Glorianny.

But as you know, that is not the issue. The problem, as you well know is when men make use of toilets that are for women and/or when women's toilets are re designated as gender neutral, leaving men's toilets for men and as a result there are insufficient facilities for women only.

Maybe you wouldn't have a problem with one room with separate cubicles being used by women and men but I, and many women do and we should never be forced into using them because some men and some women don't mind.

Thank you Smileless2012. Well put.