Malnutrition in England

I was just using them as an example to make the point .

They had Turkey Dinosaurs when my children were at primary, and I haven't had real experience of school meals since. They were vegetarian, but one of the supervisors told my son that it was ok to eat the dinosaurs if she gave him a stegosaurus, as they were herbivorous 😡. They took packed lunches from then on, but had there been decent meals it would have been a lot easier, and I think a hot meal is better, at least in winter.

But, with respect, Dd, it wasn't a valid point, unless school meals have reverted to their old ways.

Jamie Oliver ran a big campaign about unhealthy school meals nearly 20years ago which led to the banning of tts and their ilk, and of daily chip!

Back in the day when school meals were the responsibility of the local authority there was pretty strict adherence to nutritional guidelines and very little choice offered. Once Thatcher privatised school meals provision there was a turkey twizzlers and chips free for all as the catering companies who took over put profits ahead of nutriton.

growstuff

Incidentally, most secondary schools are equipped with kitchens and have a number of staff.

I’ve been looking to see if I can find out if that’s the case. I can’t find a recent review, but according to earlier reports one on three primary schools has no, or an inadequate kitchen and the rules for the size/capacity of school kitchens were changed in 2012, so secondary schools built after then won’t either. I expect there will be a huge financial investment required if they do decide to offer free, cooked on site meals. I can’t see it happening at secondary school level in the foreseeable future.

Callistemon21

You are missing the point entirely.

The whole point of advocating free nutritious school dinners for all state pupils is so that every child has a good, balanced meal each school day and there is no discrimination shown to those who have free school meals.

It is up to their parents to see that they have a balanced diet overall
I'm sure they would like to but not all can do this.

I don't think so, the difference between what I am saying is that if you are advocating a free nutritious school dinner for all state pupils, then you can offer that without it having to be cooked and you can include bread as long as the meal is balanced.
Whether that is up to the State or not is an entirely different argument. I am firmly of the belief it is not a matter for the State because I think if you are in a position of your own making that you cannot provide the basic essentials for your children, you shouldn't be having them. If you are in a position not of your own making then of course that is a different story and help should be available. As far as I am concerned, it would be better for those who can pay to pay more to get good food and for better food to be provided for those that "need" it than shove everybody in a cheap food melting pot. Quite frankly, rather than lunch, I'd like to see a good breakfast as a lot of the kids I taught didn't have breakfast and were then starving by lunchtime. How we provide that is another thread!
When I was at Secondary school, we all had tickets for lunch which we handed over at the door. These were handed out in the classroom at the beginning of the week and as money was paid directly to the office, there was no distinction between free school meals and paid for meals as far as the kids were concerned.

^ I am firmly of the belief it is not a matter for the State because I think if you are in a position of your own making that you cannot provide the basic essentials for your children, you shouldn't be having them. If you are in a position not of your own making then of course that is a different story and help should be available.^

I'm sorry, but I think that takes us back to the pernicious position of the 'deserving' and the 'undeserving' poor. What do you do with the 'undeserving'? Let their children starve?

Casdon

growstuff

Incidentally, most secondary schools are equipped with kitchens and have a number of staff.

I’ve been looking to see if I can find out if that’s the case. I can’t find a recent review, but according to earlier reports one on three primary schools has no, or an inadequate kitchen and the rules for the size/capacity of school kitchens were changed in 2012, so secondary schools built after then won’t either. I expect there will be a huge financial investment required if they do decide to offer free, cooked on site meals. I can’t see it happening at secondary school level in the foreseeable future.

I've worked in secondary schools built since 2012 and they had kitchens and catering staff.

Perhaps its time to look at school meals differently.
Mealtimes are an important part of the fabric of family and school life, where social skills are learned and food is enjoyed. We seem to have reached a point that school meals have been separated from the whole continuum of education and contracted out to the cheapest tender.
One of my daughters teaches at an independent school where all the staff join the children for the lunchtime meal and there are no packed lunches. Providing that meal is costed in with fees and is considered part of the children's education.
Maybe the State system should be looking at this concept as a first step towards reversing the trend of rising malnutrition in this country. And just to be clear, I don't just mean deficiency diseases and starvation, I also mean obesity which many don't seem to recognise as being caused by malnutrition.

MaizieD

^ I am firmly of the belief it is not a matter for the State because I think if you are in a position of your own making that you cannot provide the basic essentials for your children, you shouldn't be having them. If you are in a position not of your own making then of course that is a different story and help should be available.^

I'm sorry, but I think that takes us back to the pernicious position of the 'deserving' and the 'undeserving' poor. What do you do with the 'undeserving'? Let their children starve?

Take them away from the parents, put them in an institution and feed them good, basic nutritious food, perhaps

Sorry, icanhandthemback I think free, good, balanced school meals perhaps with less choice would be cost-effective in the long term. Healthier children, no discrimination about who gets them free or not and pupils who can concentrate better and achieve more.

Of course not, MaizieD, but usually if the situation is due to their making, it is usually because there is something more involved like drug taking, alcoholism, etc and the damage done to those children means they need more support than a free school meal.

MaizieD

But, with respect, Dd, it wasn't a valid point, unless school meals have reverted to their old ways.

Jamie Oliver ran a big campaign about unhealthy school meals nearly 20years ago which led to the banning of tts and their ilk, and of daily chip!

Back in the day when school meals were the responsibility of the local authority there was pretty strict adherence to nutritional guidelines and very little choice offered. Once Thatcher privatised school meals provision there was a turkey twizzlers and chips free for all as the catering companies who took over put profits ahead of nutriton.

Fair enough. I can't edit, but accept that my example of twizzlers should have been burgers or something more correct and in line with the times.

I think free, good, balanced school meals perhaps with less choice would be cost-effective in the long term. Healthier children, no discrimination about who gets them free or not and pupils who can concentrate better and achieve more.
Agreed.

growstuff

Casdon

growstuff

Incidentally, most secondary schools are equipped with kitchens and have a number of staff.

I’ve been looking to see if I can find out if that’s the case. I can’t find a recent review, but according to earlier reports one on three primary schools has no, or an inadequate kitchen and the rules for the size/capacity of school kitchens were changed in 2012, so secondary schools built after then won’t either. I expect there will be a huge financial investment required if they do decide to offer free, cooked on site meals. I can’t see it happening at secondary school level in the foreseeable future.

I've worked in secondary schools built since 2012 and they had kitchens and catering staff.

Yes, but the capacity has been reduced in newly built schools as they don’t provide meals for all pupils. I know Welsh Government allocated a specific £35m to primary schools to enable them to upgrade their facilities and equipment to provide free school meals for primary age children by 2024. - some primary schools here have their meals provided from secondary school kitchens as their own facilities are inadequate.

icanhandthemback

Of course not, MaizieD, but usually if the situation is due to their making, it is usually because there is something more involved like drug taking, alcoholism, etc and the damage done to those children means they need more support than a free school meal.

That may (or may not) be so, but one thing at a time? If children are being fed it is a start, then other issues can be dealt with too. Sorting out one thing needn't prevent other causes from being important.

In comparison with the vast amounts of government money that is wasted in this country, the provision of free school meals for all state pupils would cost very little.

Doodledog

icanhandthemback

Of course not, MaizieD, but usually if the situation is due to their making, it is usually because there is something more involved like drug taking, alcoholism, etc and the damage done to those children means they need more support than a free school meal.

That may (or may not) be so, but one thing at a time? If children are being fed it is a start, then other issues can be dealt with too. Sorting out one thing needn't prevent other causes from being important.

Exactly. As I've repeatedly said on various threads on here, in this day and age, no child should be going hungry - and whatever the reason behind a child being hungry, let's just remember that it's never the fault of the child. We may not be able to sort out all their problems - but giving them a full tummy is at least a start.

and whatever the reason behind a child being hungry, let's just remember that it's never the fault of the child
Well said.

I remember years ago the Children's Commissioner for Wales saying he'd asked one young boy if he was looking forward to the school holidays and was surprised when the boy said "No".
The reason was that he got fed a dinner at school but not in the holidays.

Callistemon21 It is recommended that children get about half their calories in the form of carbohydrates, some at each meal.

It is cheap, fatty food, sweet food and drinks that cause the problems with obesity.

Quote: "What is the recommended daily amount (RDA) of carbohydrates? According to the NHS, we should be consuming at least 260 grams of carbohydrates a day. The BANT Wellbeing Guidelines recommends that 50% of our food intake should come from carbohydrates."

I make baguettes most every day. I use 2.5 c flour, 1t each salt sugar and yeast, plus 1 c water. Makes 10 lunch servings. Thus lunch baguette contains 1/4c flour =23 net g carbs and 3 g protein.

Sandwich fillings provide needed protein.

Recalling the 'strictly cheese' thread--

Children (without diabetes) would have no excess carbs in protein filled baguette, piece of fruit, veg - at lunch.

Not all people have diabetes. I attempt to keep my carbs below 200g daily - to stay slim, no other reason. My bread/carb intake, at all meals, is easily accommodated in 200g carbs daily.

That's very sad, Callistemon21 - and I suspect he's not the only one. My niece is a teacher and she, along with several of her teacher friends, keep a stash of things like granola bars and breakfast bars in a drawer because they know certain pupils don't get breakfast.

Blondiescot

That's very sad, Callistemon21 - and I suspect he's not the only one. My niece is a teacher and she, along with several of her teacher friends, keep a stash of things like granola bars and breakfast bars in a drawer because they know certain pupils don't get breakfast.

It was a while ago, BlondieScot but something I've never forgotten.
Nor have I forgotten my teacher friend telling me about a little boy whose daily packed lunch consisted of one piece of sliced bread spread with tomato ketchup. The dinner ladies and teacher on duty used to make sure he got a dinner as his mother would not apply for free school meals.

Norah

Callistemon21 It is recommended that children get about half their calories in the form of carbohydrates, some at each meal.

It is cheap, fatty food, sweet food and drinks that cause the problems with obesity.

Quote: "What is the recommended daily amount (RDA) of carbohydrates? According to the NHS, we should be consuming at least 260 grams of carbohydrates a day. The BANT Wellbeing Guidelines recommends that 50% of our food intake should come from carbohydrates."

I make baguettes most every day. I use 2.5 c flour, 1t each salt sugar and yeast, plus 1 c water. Makes 10 lunch servings. Thus lunch baguette contains 1/4c flour =23 net g carbs and 3 g protein.

Sandwich fillings provide needed protein.

Recalling the 'strictly cheese' thread--

Children (without diabetes) would have no excess carbs in protein filled baguette, piece of fruit, veg - at lunch.

Not all people have diabetes. I attempt to keep my carbs below 200g daily - to stay slim, no other reason. My bread/carb intake, at all meals, is easily accommodated in 200g carbs daily.

I don't want to get too tied up in this but there is a huge difference between complex carbohydrate - derived from vegetables and pulses and whole grains which release slowly in the body and the very processed white bread which causes rapid glucose spikes and troughs. Not all carbohydrates are equal I'm afraid.

Norah

Callistemon21 It is recommended that children get about half their calories in the form of carbohydrates, some at each meal.

It is cheap, fatty food, sweet food and drinks that cause the problems with obesity.

Quote: "What is the recommended daily amount (RDA) of carbohydrates? According to the NHS, we should be consuming at least 260 grams of carbohydrates a day. The BANT Wellbeing Guidelines recommends that 50% of our food intake should come from carbohydrates."

I make baguettes most every day. I use 2.5 c flour, 1t each salt sugar and yeast, plus 1 c water. Makes 10 lunch servings. Thus lunch baguette contains 1/4c flour =23 net g carbs and 3 g protein.

Sandwich fillings provide needed protein.

Recalling the 'strictly cheese' thread--

Children (without diabetes) would have no excess carbs in protein filled baguette, piece of fruit, veg - at lunch.

Not all people have diabetes. I attempt to keep my carbs below 200g daily - to stay slim, no other reason. My bread/carb intake, at all meals, is easily accommodated in 200g carbs daily.

But Norah there's no mention of fruit or veg - just the baguette. It obviously depends what filling is in the baguette, but the chances are that there would still be well over 50% carbs in the meal. I'm guessing you do realise that all veggies and fruit contain carbs.

No, not all people have diabetes, but about two thirds of people over the age of 55 are overweight or obese and they could easily cut down their carbs.

Calipso

Norah

Callistemon21 It is recommended that children get about half their calories in the form of carbohydrates, some at each meal.

It is cheap, fatty food, sweet food and drinks that cause the problems with obesity.

Quote: "What is the recommended daily amount (RDA) of carbohydrates? According to the NHS, we should be consuming at least 260 grams of carbohydrates a day. The BANT Wellbeing Guidelines recommends that 50% of our food intake should come from carbohydrates."

I make baguettes most every day. I use 2.5 c flour, 1t each salt sugar and yeast, plus 1 c water. Makes 10 lunch servings. Thus lunch baguette contains 1/4c flour =23 net g carbs and 3 g protein.

Sandwich fillings provide needed protein.

Recalling the 'strictly cheese' thread--

Children (without diabetes) would have no excess carbs in protein filled baguette, piece of fruit, veg - at lunch.

Not all people have diabetes. I attempt to keep my carbs below 200g daily - to stay slim, no other reason. My bread/carb intake, at all meals, is easily accommodated in 200g carbs daily.

I don't want to get too tied up in this but there is a huge difference between complex carbohydrate - derived from vegetables and pulses and whole grains which release slowly in the body and the very processed white bread which causes rapid glucose spikes and troughs. Not all carbohydrates are equal I'm afraid.

Of course all carbs are different.

Many people eat bread as a quite healthy carb. There is nothing at all wrong with bread made properly and not full of junk. Nobody is advocating bread full of sugar and chemicals.

I'd guess many children have some form of bread at dinner.

Calipso

Norah

Callistemon21 It is recommended that children get about half their calories in the form of carbohydrates, some at each meal.

It is cheap, fatty food, sweet food and drinks that cause the problems with obesity.

Quote: "What is the recommended daily amount (RDA) of carbohydrates? According to the NHS, we should be consuming at least 260 grams of carbohydrates a day. The BANT Wellbeing Guidelines recommends that 50% of our food intake should come from carbohydrates."

I make baguettes most every day. I use 2.5 c flour, 1t each salt sugar and yeast, plus 1 c water. Makes 10 lunch servings. Thus lunch baguette contains 1/4c flour =23 net g carbs and 3 g protein.

Sandwich fillings provide needed protein.

Recalling the 'strictly cheese' thread--

Children (without diabetes) would have no excess carbs in protein filled baguette, piece of fruit, veg - at lunch.

Not all people have diabetes. I attempt to keep my carbs below 200g daily - to stay slim, no other reason. My bread/carb intake, at all meals, is easily accommodated in 200g carbs daily.

I don't want to get too tied up in this but there is a huge difference between complex carbohydrate - derived from vegetables and pulses and whole grains which release slowly in the body and the very processed white bread which causes rapid glucose spikes and troughs. Not all carbohydrates are equal I'm afraid.

No, they're not equal and some are digested more quickly, but they're still carbs and require insulin to be metabolised.

FWIW, I test my blood glucose three times a week six times a day, so I know which foods spike my plasma glucose levels. Every so often, I try something new to me such as a small portion of brown rice, porridge or wholegrain bread and I know they spike my levels and it takes hours for the levels to come down. Non-diabetic people will have the same spikes, but they produce enough insulin for the level to come down within two hours.

It can take years for the pancreas to wear out, so people don't realise the future problems.

Norah

Calipso

Norah

Callistemon21 It is recommended that children get about half their calories in the form of carbohydrates, some at each meal.

It is cheap, fatty food, sweet food and drinks that cause the problems with obesity.

Quote: "What is the recommended daily amount (RDA) of carbohydrates? According to the NHS, we should be consuming at least 260 grams of carbohydrates a day. The BANT Wellbeing Guidelines recommends that 50% of our food intake should come from carbohydrates."

I make baguettes most every day. I use 2.5 c flour, 1t each salt sugar and yeast, plus 1 c water. Makes 10 lunch servings. Thus lunch baguette contains 1/4c flour =23 net g carbs and 3 g protein.

Sandwich fillings provide needed protein.

Recalling the 'strictly cheese' thread--

Children (without diabetes) would have no excess carbs in protein filled baguette, piece of fruit, veg - at lunch.

Not all people have diabetes. I attempt to keep my carbs below 200g daily - to stay slim, no other reason. My bread/carb intake, at all meals, is easily accommodated in 200g carbs daily.

I don't want to get too tied up in this but there is a huge difference between complex carbohydrate - derived from vegetables and pulses and whole grains which release slowly in the body and the very processed white bread which causes rapid glucose spikes and troughs. Not all carbohydrates are equal I'm afraid.

Of course all carbs are different.

Many people eat bread as a quite healthy carb. There is nothing at all wrong with bread made properly and not full of junk. Nobody is advocating bread full of sugar and chemicals.

I'd guess many children have some form of bread at dinner.

I don't think they do. I've supervised thousands of children at school lunch times and few of them eat bread. Many of the sandwiches made at home even end up in the bin.

This has got out of hand now...