Free Speech What Do Grans Think?

But even the inciting violence thing is very easily misused. Look at the way suicide is being used in debate.

Galaxy

But even the inciting violence thing is very easily misused. Look at the way suicide is being used in debate.

Oh yes, people will manipulate and twist things, and find ways to make passive threats. It’s human nature I suppose, and it’s all but impossible to legislate against that, as they/we will find ways around it.

People using their positions of power to force others to listen to their opinions is literally everything wrong with the world

Twitter is dying because it's being run like a dictatorship and you have to pay to be heard which puts too many people at a disadvantage against those with money and power

Taking away people's rights to not have someone in power over them tell them they are going to hell leads to things like women being unable to obtain abortions

Re. Article 10 of the Human Rights Act. Yes, it is designed to protect Freedom of Expression, but it " may be restricted for health reasons, or if it affects other human rights such as privacy or fair trial." Article 14. The Right Not to be Discriminated Against can also limit the unhindered application of Article 10 , so it really is an extremely difficult balancing act, and each case will no doubt bring its own challenges and complexities. I can't see that Human Rights lawyers are ever likely to be short of business.

Councillors are there to ensure provision of local services. That is their remit.

I don't believe in God (any God), but I pay my Council Tax, and I'd just like things to be done - such as potholes, pavements, rubbish collection etc.

I don't care what religion anyone is - leave the preaching to the place of worship, and just do what you're paid to do - serve the locals.,🙄

If people want to be "sinful", then providing it's nothing illegal, they are allowed to do so. Unless it adversely affects others, or stamps all over their rights etc, it's nothing to do with anyone else.

As for the rest - debate, disagreement and opinions are fine, even healthy in a democracy - just don't say or do anything that might incite violence.

As far as "homosexuality" in the Bible is concerned, the best book I've read is "Dirt, Greed and Sex" by William Countryman.

In Old Testament times there was no concept of "homosexuality" as an inherent way of being. A man having sex other than for procreation was seen as a waste of seed, so Onanism (variously interpreted as masturbation or coitus interruptus) was punishable by death, as what we would now call homosexual sex.

Other tribes practised cultic male prostitution, so it became a badge of differentiation for the children of Israel Not to do so. It was originally not a moral question, just one of declaring one tribe to be different to the others, And of trying to make sure that the tribe's numbers continued to increase.

There are more references in the OT to the problem of mildew than to gay sex.

I'm a practising Christian, who wouldn't dream of imposing my beliefs within the context of a secular job, or even declaring them, unless asked for. If a job did not align with those beliefs, I wouldn't take it. Maybe not so much if not align but certainly if it ran contrary to my beliefs.

I don't have any problems with mildew.

We are not free to express our opinions any more unless they are what is believed to be politically correct. We all have to be careful these days. If I expressed some of my views on this site I would be banned that's for sure

This is probably equally true of me!

I am not Chistian but I have friends who are. I respect their right to hold the views they do even if I strongly disagree with some of them. I also have no problem with the Pride movement so long as they dont parade every day past my front door. Its a big thing here in Manchester and brings a lot of money into the city. Gay people are taxpayers too.

What I do abhor is the undeniable fact that you cannot express free speech in this country without offending someone who is "in the business" of being offended.

DiamondLily

Councillors are there to ensure provision of local services. That is their remit.

I don't believe in God (any God), but I pay my Council Tax, and I'd just like things to be done - such as potholes, pavements, rubbish collection etc.

I don't care what religion anyone is - leave the preaching to the place of worship, and just do what you're paid to do - serve the locals.,🙄

If people want to be "sinful", then providing it's nothing illegal, they are allowed to do so. Unless it adversely affects others, or stamps all over their rights etc, it's nothing to do with anyone else.

As for the rest - debate, disagreement and opinions are fine, even healthy in a democracy - just don't say or do anything that might incite violence.

This sums up my thoughts on the matter, DL.

Ailidh, what's the Biblical view of mildew?

As one of those ‘minorities’ who has been directly affected by bigots and bigotry, up to and including violence, I learned early that freedom of expression was often a useful cover for those who hated me for what I am.

I am proud to have not been cowed or intimidated into stopping campaigning and lobbying for changes of hearts, minds and laws. I’m not daft enough to think that there will never be bigots, but I am delighted when they say that society has changed so much that they don’t feel comfortable openly expressing their racism, homophobia or other prejudices.

Of course, freedom of expression is important - vital even - but nobody ever said freedom of expression = freedom from consequences. Feel free to speak your truth, feel free to express your views, feel free to stand up for what you believe, provided that you are happy to accept, as I have done for so long, that there will be consequences.

Which is, of course, exactly what has happened in the case in the OP. Nobody has stopped Mr Lawal expressing his opinion, one organisation has merely said there are consequences.

Siope, thanks for bringing your personal experience and views to this discussion. The legal framework is important and without the HRA we would all be worse off but your comments bring the concerns about this councillor to life.

Social attitudes towards so called minority groups have changed and improved over our lifetimes. Our family recently celebrated our first wedding involving two men. It’s possible to separate personal belief from public work. Possible but it doesn’t always happen. From what little I’ve read, I’m not convinced this man is able to do that.

Riverwalk

^Responding to images of Pride parades organised by LGBT groups at the end of last month, he wrote: “When did pride become a thing to celebrate? Because of pride, Satan fell as an archangel. Pride is not a virtue but a sin. Those who have pride should repent of their sins and return to Jesus Christ. He can save you. #PrideMonth #Pride23 #PrideParade.”^

He's equating gay people with sin - which is not a very kind thing to do.

He's free to say it, and various organisations are free to say they don't want to be associated with him and his thoughts.

Sticks and stones,etc.

Freya5

Riverwalk

Responding to images of Pride parades organised by LGBT groups at the end of last month, he wrote: “When did pride become a thing to celebrate? Because of pride, Satan fell as an archangel. Pride is not a virtue but a sin. Those who have pride should repent of their sins and return to Jesus Christ. He can save you. #PrideMonth #Pride23 #PrideParade.”

He's equating gay people with sin - which is not a very kind thing to do.

He's free to say it, and various organisations are free to say they don't want to be associated with him and his thoughts.

Sticks and stones,etc.

It's a difficult one.

Pride is the actual sin as far as Christians believe, which is as described in the Bible, the original sin.

However, perhaps he is blurring the lines and in so doing is leading people to believe that being gay is sinful.

We are every one of us sinners according to the Bible. The reason Christ came was to take our sins upon himself. Christian or not, we all sin. Homosexuals are sinners along with everyone else.

Siope

As one of those ‘minorities’ who has been directly affected by bigots and bigotry, up to and including violence, I learned early that freedom of expression was often a useful cover for those who hated me for what I am.

I am proud to have not been cowed or intimidated into stopping campaigning and lobbying for changes of hearts, minds and laws. I’m not daft enough to think that there will never be bigots, but I am delighted when they say that society has changed so much that they don’t feel comfortable openly expressing their racism, homophobia or other prejudices.

Of course, freedom of expression is important - vital even - but nobody ever said freedom of expression = freedom from consequences. Feel free to speak your truth, feel free to express your views, feel free to stand up for what you believe, provided that you are happy to accept, as I have done for so long, that there will be consequences.

Which is, of course, exactly what has happened in the case in the OP. Nobody has stopped Mr Lawal expressing his opinion, one organisation has merely said there are consequences.

Exactly that.

Pride (with a small 'p') is, indeed, a sin, if you believe in sin.

Pride (capital 'p') is a festival to celebrate gay liberation from prejudice. This man is deliberately conflating the two to say that being gay is a sin. He may believe that to be the case, but it is also a protected characteristic, so as a councillor he has no choice but to accept it, on the surface as least. He can pray how he likes, but he can't tweet things like that in the role of Conservative councillor. He could go independent and do it, and see how many votes he gets, but he can't drag an established political party through the mud.

I felt slightly sick (really) when I saw the DT headline today. I hope plenty of Coutts customers cancel their accounts.
"Sir, I disagree with what you say, but I will.defend to the death you right to say it" (Don't know who)
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. W. Churchill.

Germanshepherdsmum

Yes we have Skydancer. A time when we as heterosexual people born and bred here were in the majority, a time when we didn’t have to kowtow to those who were not, and to people whose sexual preferences are in the minority.

What the.....? Did you really just post this? I have no words.... 🤦‍♂️

It appears to be a homophobic comment and as a lesbian I find his remarks offensive and inciting prejudice

It’s a toughie ! Let’s leave politics completely out of this as I feel it’s irrelevant in this context.

So, my own opinion is “freedom of thought” is completely different to publicly expressing what effectively could be construed as “hate speech” when you’re a public figure.

Hate speech, whether we agree or not is a crime now.

In your own home you’re completely free to express yourself and free to speak about any topic and hold strong opinions.

To do this publicly is dangerous.

I think many strong views are held in the name of Christianity.

Pride isn’t just a celebration of how far we’ve come, but also a protest of far much further we need to go.

With two gays daughters in their 20’s I’m horrified to discover they still experience discrimination both personally and in the workplace.

Freedom of Screech is one thing, and I hope we never lose this, freedom to express your views negatively against specific groups of people us entirely another.

This gentleman may believe pride is a sin, many of us don’t and we are “proud” of many things.

Any self respecting Christian would preach acceptance not the opposite

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Germanshepherdsmum

Yes we have Skydancer. A time when we as heterosexual people born and bred here were in the majority, a time when we didn’t have to kowtow to those who were not, and to people whose sexual preferences are in the minority.

This seems overstated!

I wonder if there would have been a similar backlash if someone gay or trans had said similar?

I am a pagan, and I have no time for Christian dogma, but I support this man's right to quote the tenets of his own holy book.

As for having learned to give resect where it is 'earned', VioletSky, I would ask what are the criteria for 'earning' respect? And I would say all too many people respect very little, including themselves.

Something is very sour and very off in the way we are going. No of course we do not want to return to times when homosexuals feared for their lives. But is the only alternative this complete circus we now have?

I have to keep my mouth shut about a lot of my beliefs these days. I do not know what the answer is, apart from all trying to be more tolerant, more loving and just not to shout so much.

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We all have our opinions, thoughts and beliefs, but keep them out of the workplace. That is not the place to air them.

I worked in public services for many years - I was there to serve all of the the public, not spout off about religion or anything else.

Or to allow it to affect my job.

I think this councillor is mixing up his interpretation of the word gay anyway.

Years ago, the word "gay" in books etc., meant to be jolly and happy.🙄

Galaxy

That doesnt answer the question though. Elon musk is currently putting controls on what is said on Twitter, with enormous reach, is that ok.

Of course you don't have to use Twitter.
It's optional.