What is left about Labour now?

Plenty of Tory trolling methinks.

I’m not throwing Truss anywhere thats entirely your interpretation it’s an example of how to loose investor confidence and I’m sure Starmer won’t make that mistake.
The BoE can create money, they already hold a very large amount adding to that for social improvement will not be well received by investors.

Since the 2008 crash it has been proved that borrowing/creation does not increase growth enough to cover the borrowing, if it did borrowing would not increase.

GrannyGravy13

If staunch Labour Party supporters have no faith in KS, why should those of us who are not impressed with the current direction of the Conservative Party switch our vote to Labour?

It seems to me that we will just have more of the same…

As Casdon said. The Labour party is much closer to Conservative ideology now and should provide a safe home for those who previously voted Conservative.

The extreme left wing of the Labour Party are nowhere near as vile as the extreme right wing of the Conservative Party. And, unlike the Conservative Party, Labour Party members do disagree. As Rory Stewart explained in TRIP’s when questioned about his voting record, you do not go against the party whip when you’re a Conservative MP. Look at the throughly decent Tory MP’s that have been pushed out, and they have even been out to get the admirable Tobias Elwood recently. I shudder to think what Tufton Street have got in store for the country if the Conservatives win another election. Much as I disagree with the extreme left wing of the party about many things, we do share a common desire to make this country a better place for everyone. And that’s why, after the next election, we’ll work together to achieve that.

Katie59

I’m not throwing Truss anywhere thats entirely your interpretation it’s an example of how to loose investor confidence and I’m sure Starmer won’t make that mistake.
The BoE can create money, they already hold a very large amount adding to that for social improvement will not be well received by investors.

Since the 2008 crash it has been proved that borrowing/creation does not increase growth enough to cover the borrowing, if it did borrowing would not increase.

I suggest, Katie59 that you read this extract carefully. It tells a very surprising story.

Start
A lost century in economics: Three theories of banking and the conclusive evidence☆
Richard A. Werner

Richard Andreas Werner is a German banking and development economist who is a university professor at University of Winchester

The link between bank credit creation and bank capital was most graphically illustrated by the actions of the Swiss bank Credit Suisse in 2008. This incident has produced a case study that demonstrates how banks as money creators can effectively conjure any level of capital, whether directly or indirectly, therefore rendering bank regulation based on capital adequacy irrelevant: Unwilling to accept public money to shore up its failing capital, as several other major UK and Swiss banks had done, Credit Suisse arranged in October 2008 for Gulf investors (mainly from Qatar) to purchase in total over £7 billion worth of its newly issued preference shares, thus raising the amount of its capital and thereby avoiding bankruptcy.

The Gulf investors did not need to take the trouble of making liquid assets available for this investment, as Credit Suisse generously offered to lend the money to the Gulf investors. The bank managed to raise its capital through these preference shares. Table 11 illustrates this capital bootstrapping (not considering fees and interest).

Credit Suisse had not merely lent a prospective shareholder the funds to buy its shares, but it created the funds out of nothing.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1057521915001477

End

Even better. Read the whole paper

P.S As far as I am aware Werner is not associated with MMT, though his research confirms MMT's basic principle.

GrannyGravy13

If staunch Labour Party supporters have no faith in KS, why should those of us who are not impressed with the current direction of the Conservative Party switch our vote to Labour?

It seems to me that we will just have more of the same…

It is only the left wing, who are aggrieved that their leader - Corbyn - was refused membership, because he refused to follow party discipline, particularly relating to the anti-semitism issue, and constantly tried to undermine the labour leadership.

The bulk of the labour membership have every faith in Starmer.

But as a business woman, I would have thought that you have worked out by now how bad the Tory party is for business. Many have, and are turning in their droves to other parties. Labour has received for more in donations from the business community this year than the Tory party.

The economy will be far more stable in Labour’s hands.

Although there are of course other political parties.

Since the 2008 crash it has been proved that borrowing/creation does not increase growth enough to cover the borrowing, if it did borrowing would not increase.

It is well documented that after the 2008 crash the actions of the Labour government in initiating QE were helping the economy to recover.

This recovery was halted by the tory government of 2010 almost throwing the economy into recession by its 'austerity' programme, which involved swingeing cuts to public expenditure. A policy which has been since condemned by economists and, most noticeably, by the IMF.

Austerity caused sluggish growth, not QE. We are still suffering from its effects.

I admit to being conflicted as to where to put my X in the next GE.

I am leaning towards an Independent Candidate.

Whatever the outcome I hope that the winning Party will not have an all encompassing majority, a slim margin would in my opinion lead to more discussion and compromise between the Parties.

"Rachel Reeves wants to reintroduce PFIs which were a false economy the first time round".

Currently, locally, the SNP are going hard against Labour on the PFI fiasco, which is, in many Council areas, now the biggest item in the Council's budget. Schools built using PFI are beginning to age and Janitors/school technicians are not allowed to as much as change a lightbulb themselves, but must inform and wait for the PFI's workers to turn up and do the job.

MayBee70

Just remind me who actually won the 2017 election? And who enabled Johnson, the worst PM in living memory*, to gain a landslide victory at the next one? If Corbyn did well it was down to him saying he would scrap university fees. However, by the time of the people’s vote marches, the chants of oh Jeremy Corbyn had become where’s Jeremy Corbyn….
*till Truss…

Actually no one won the 2017 election. The Tories hung on to power by buying the support of the DUP Isn't it funny how the people who keep bringing up Corbyn are those who want to denigrate him. The man isn't a factor any longer, why not just leave him alone.

I've a theory that the reason people post so many bad things about him is because he touched their conscience. They know at heart that he is a decent man with integrity, and they are ashamed they didn't support him but fell for a shyster like Boris.

Granny23

"Rachel Reeves wants to reintroduce PFIs which were a false economy the first time round".

Currently, locally, the SNP are going hard against Labour on the PFI fiasco, which is, in many Council areas, now the biggest item in the Council's budget. Schools built using PFI are beginning to age and Janitors/school technicians are not allowed to as much as change a lightbulb themselves, but must inform and wait for the PFI's workers to turn up and do the job.

Yes Reeves and Starmer ideas on the economy is useless

Abandoning a wealth tax is a ruinous Labour strategy. It’s ‘Blairism without the cash’

The tough choice is not to court big business, but to invest in rebuilding our shattered society. That would be truly brave

Owen Jones.

Owen Jones 😂

Iam64

Owen Jones 😂

What he says is true laugh what you want.

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

If staunch Labour Party supporters have no faith in KS, why should those of us who are not impressed with the current direction of the Conservative Party switch our vote to Labour?

It seems to me that we will just have more of the same…

It is only the left wing, who are aggrieved that their leader - Corbyn - was refused membership, because he refused to follow party discipline, particularly relating to the anti-semitism issue, and constantly tried to undermine the labour leadership.

The bulk of the labour membership have every faith in Starmer.

But as a business woman, I would have thought that you have worked out by now how bad the Tory party is for business. Many have, and are turning in their droves to other parties. Labour has received for more in donations from the business community this year than the Tory party.

The economy will be far more stable in Labour’s hands.

Although there are of course other political parties.

Over the past three years, Starmer has been busy setting out his conditions for remaining in the Labour Party tent - parameters that just so happen to mirror precisely the British establishment’s requirements for legitimacy in public life.

Starmer demands simple-minded patriotism and an unwavering commitment to the West’s Nato military alliance and its aggressive posturing and expansion. He ostentatiously prioritises the needs of big business and demurs about the right of those abused by neoliberalism to strike. He describes himself as a proud Zionist and decries any but the softest criticism of Israel as proof of antisemitism.

GrannyGravy13

I admit to being conflicted as to where to put my X in the next GE.

I am leaning towards an Independent Candidate.

Whatever the outcome I hope that the winning Party will not have an all encompassing majority, a slim margin would in my opinion lead to more discussion and compromise between the Parties.

Well, you’re certainly doing your best to stop Labour getting a working majority. Can you explain to me why as a so called Labour supporter, not voting for your Labour candidate at the next election is going to help get this country out of the mess it’s in? Does an independent candidate in your area stand any chance of winning?

Sorry GrannyGravy: I thought you were Grany….

Although the members of the Labour Party, and the Conservative Party for that matter, have power in deciding who leads the party, thankfully they won't make the decision about who governs after the next election. That decision will be made by the bulk of voters who are not necessarily floating voters but who are not on the far right or left of politics. The further right the Tories go, the more likely one nation Tories will vote for either a Lib Dem or Labour candidate. I feel that making the Labour party appealing to the middle ground voters is the way to go. I sometimes think that left wingers would prefer to be out of government and able to complain than be in government and be able to make some changes.

Just remember that, at an election, the number of votes a party gets determines the funding they will get at the next election. So imo a vote for, say, the Green Party is a more constructive vote than one for an independent candidate.

It’s sad as all the political parties have given up on their so called principles. But my Labour MP is amazing - I have excellent conservative councillors in a Labour majority council and a fantastic Labour MP.
I think we have to forget the political parties and vote for the people who are competent

It doesn't seem to make much difference who gets into Parliament as far as I can tell. Over the last 50 years or so it seems to me that the rich get richer the poor get help and the everyday working people pay for it all. It just doesn't pay for working people to help themselves as they are better off if they don't. What needs to be done is to make is much more worth while for people to work than it is to not work. That would be a good start.

MaggsMcG

It doesn't seem to make much difference who gets into Parliament as far as I can tell. Over the last 50 years or so it seems to me that the rich get richer the poor get help and the everyday working people pay for it all. It just doesn't pay for working people to help themselves as they are better off if they don't. What needs to be done is to make is much more worth while for people to work than it is to not work. That would be a good start.

Might I ask what you, as an individual, have done to attempt to remedy that?

MaizieD

^Since the 2008 crash it has been proved that borrowing/creation does not increase growth enough to cover the borrowing, if it did borrowing would not increase.^

It is well documented that after the 2008 crash the actions of the Labour government in initiating QE were helping the economy to recover.

This recovery was halted by the tory government of 2010 almost throwing the economy into recession by its 'austerity' programme, which involved swingeing cuts to public expenditure. A policy which has been since condemned by economists and, most noticeably, by the IMF.

Austerity caused sluggish growth, not QE. We are still suffering from its effects.

Maisie I’m not arguing against MMT the theory is valid if invested for growth.
In 2009 UK borrowing was around 50% of GDP valued at £1.8tn
Now debt is 100% of GDP valued at £2.4tn

The UKs debt has increased from £900bn to £2400bn yet the GDP has only increased by £400bn only 25% of borrowing, even if you exclude the £800bn QE it’s still only a 50% return on GDP

In taxation terms revenue has only increased from £700bn to £840bn an average of £10bn extra each year yet borrowing has increased by £100bn each year over that period, it’s hardly surprising that sterling has fallen in value from $2 to $1.25

The Tories have managed the economy very badly, it’s with this background that Starmers options are severely limited

I agree Diamond Lilly.

MaggsMcG

It doesn't seem to make much difference who gets into Parliament as far as I can tell. Over the last 50 years or so it seems to me that the rich get richer the poor get help and the everyday working people pay for it all. It just doesn't pay for working people to help themselves as they are better off if they don't. What needs to be done is to make is much more worth while for people to work than it is to not work. That would be a good start.

It's not just the rich getting richer. Back in 1953 home ownership was 31% of the housing. In 2022 it had increased to 64%.

Part of the 33% in 1953 were my GPs and also my in laws. Both couples lived in ordinary semis of the kind that you see all over the country. They were firstly blue collar and later white collar workers, similar to thousands of people across the country.

In 1980, by which point I imagine that the baby boomers, if they were able to do so, had bought their home. At that point the rate of owner occupation was 56% . The highest percentage of owner occupation was 69% in 2000 and it then started to drop. There are a number of reasons for this - high mortgage rates between 1980 and 1990, sudden increases in house prices - 1980, 1985, 2000 and 2022 and earnings for many not increasing at the same rate. Also a lack of affordable housing.

Please don't forget all the council houses which were originally purchased by the workers who occupied them.
Unfortunately things have gone badly wrong in the UK. The recent hikes in interest rates have cause many in the buy to let market to reduce their portfolios or perhaps sell up. Many of these owners will be ordinary people who have sought to future proof their income by going into the property market, perhaps forgetting that interest rates do go up.

My point is that it's not just everyday working people who have to pay. It's nearly all of us although some people will be hit rather later than others.

I also take issue with your statement "to make it much more worthwhile for people to work" So a few figures - taken from the ONS for the quarter ended June 2023.

Unemployed 1,439,000
Economically inactive 8,693,000

Of the inactive, 13% are retired; 25 % are students; 18% are looking after home and family, 32% are long term sick and 12% don't want a job.

There are a number of reasons why people don't want a job at any given time - moving home, haven't yet started looking for a job, waiting for the results of a job application or don't need or want a job. There are also some who have not given reasons.

My conclusions - there are very few people who find in not worthwhile to work.

A Labour government offers the only alternative to more years of chaos under this government. To change things you have to get elected.