We’re rejoining the Horizon programme….

I voted to remain for myriad reasons

I’ll make a very small list of some - don’t forget that it is a trading block, so we are not talking about anything domestic.

1. We were part of the biggest economic block in the world with nearly 600 million customers.

2. We had freedom of movement to work and live more or less anywhere in Europe

3. Our businesses knew that they had a totally level playing field with all other businesses in the EU, and if they felt something was wrong they had a court to which to appeal.

4. Cooperation between the members in other areas gave each country a far bigger clout than it has as a country trading on its own - the U.K. has discovered this to its chagrin recently - look at Sunak in India!

For me at a personal level I think of Europe as one big cultural union and I love that fact

Businesses have freedom of the movement of goods and services.
Freedom of the movement of capital
Freedom of the movement of labour.

I can go on and on - there are so many reasons for remaining.

Oh and of course for those who have a thing about asylum seekers etc they of course under EU rules should seek to stay in the first safe country - so the U.K. as an outlier member would get a lot fewer with the right to return people who turn up.

It started off as a trading block WWM2. Then it was the EEC European Economic Community and that’s what was put to us to vote for when we first agreed to join. It, however, ceased to be just a trading block and became political. We paid thousands in which we didn’t get back, our laws and sovereignty were overthrown. We no longer controlled our own destiny. That is mostly the reason I voted leave but I admit I didn’t expect that there would be so many voting the same. So we voted leave and left in a democratic vote. However there were so many blocks by politicians in particular who didn’t agree and then there was Covid followed by the war in Ukraine which have had economic repercussions from which we seem to be beginning to recover, unlike Germany who were the leading power, but are now in economic difficulties.

Oh and did anyone watch The Last Night if the Proms

😄😄😄🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺

What laws were overthrown exactly? How many better laws have been enacted? Did people really vote for lower standards?

25Avalon

It started off as a trading block WWM2. Then it was the EEC European Economic Community and that’s what was put to us to vote for when we first agreed to join. It, however, ceased to be just a trading block and became political. We paid thousands in which we didn’t get back, our laws and sovereignty were overthrown. We no longer controlled our own destiny. That is mostly the reason I voted leave but I admit I didn’t expect that there would be so many voting the same. So we voted leave and left in a democratic vote. However there were so many blocks by politicians in particular who didn’t agree and then there was Covid followed by the war in Ukraine which have had economic repercussions from which we seem to be beginning to recover, unlike Germany who were the leading power, but are now in economic difficulties.

I really do not want to argue over what is in effect a decision now seen as disastrous.

Many of your arguments are plain wrong and unless you want me to detail why they are wrong it is sufficient to understand that these false arguments were used to persuade voters at the referendum which is why we find ourselves in the pickle we are in.

But honestly I replied to the question put to remainers it is a shame that brexiters are unable to do the same.

But I’m not worried as their arguments are now redundant.

With regard to laws.

The EU has zero power relating to our domestic laws.

Laws relating to fair trading practice and a level playing field relates to the entire membership.

It would make sense otherwise.

Am delighted we're back in with the Horizon project...was a remainer always will be pro Europe

Plus we haven’t saved any money - Brexit has already cost more than our membership contributions for the whole of the 40 years we were members . We were told our public services would be better - with a lot more money - how is that going?

Germany is not the EU. It's a member state. Member states have their own particular problems. Because they are autonomous, sovereign states.

Regaining access to the Horizon programme is excellent news and not just for academics but for all us who may one day benefit from the fruits of research. I can't see how it has anything to do with class as has been suggested by some. Don't we all want to see progress on, for example, research into Alzheimers? Why would we not want our academics to share their knowledge and have some input into ongoing research? I deplore the "take back control" slogan but I do want to take back collaborative participation.

25Avalon

It started off as a trading block WWM2. Then it was the EEC European Economic Community and that’s what was put to us to vote for when we first agreed to join. It, however, ceased to be just a trading block and became political. We paid thousands in which we didn’t get back, our laws and sovereignty were overthrown. We no longer controlled our own destiny. That is mostly the reason I voted leave but I admit I didn’t expect that there would be so many voting the same. So we voted leave and left in a democratic vote. However there were so many blocks by politicians in particular who didn’t agree and then there was Covid followed by the war in Ukraine which have had economic repercussions from which we seem to be beginning to recover, unlike Germany who were the leading power, but are now in economic difficulties.

There was always a political dimension to the EEC, EC, EU. Its very foundation was politically motivated. What makes trying to avoid another World War 'not political'? Seems extremely political to me... And requiring members to follow democratic principles in governance and elections? Not political?

Anyway, the political dimension was constantly noted in speeches and in the media right from the start. No, I don't recall that much about it, but it's there in archives for all to see.

AhEurophile and Remoaners jump up and down thinking they are seeing something when in fact they just do not understand. The UK had agreed prior to leaving the E.U. participation in the Horizon project. But when we left the E.U. acted like a Spoilt child and said YOU are not playing with my toys.

We said - Fine We will keep our money which upset them.

We then said - WE had an agreement and we will see you in Court. Guess who has won!!!

Now everyone appreciates that making deals with the E.U. is not straight forward as the E.U. is not trustworthy.

The UK will now receive the LION share of funding until such tiem as Balance is restored per the Original Agreement and here is no NEW Agreement - just that teh E.U. is COIMPELLED to Comply.

Oh dear Trurider it would appear you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

growstuff

Oh dear Trurider it would appear you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

I second this. She really doesn't have a clue.

Trurider you are banging your head on a brick wall. I suggest abandoning this thread as they will never ever concede any point you make. Sad really.

25Avalon

Trurider you are banging your head on a brick wall. I suggest abandoning this thread as they will never ever concede any point you make. Sad really.

It seems from the rude replies that you’re right☹️
As someone who voted to remain in the EU I was disappointed with their attitude about us staying in the Horizon programme ( and no, being out of the club shouldn’t have had anything to do with it.) Countries not in the EU are in Horizon.It was used as a bargaining chip by the EU, sadly.
Anyone who thinks the EU doesn’t do anything like that needs to think again.

Oreo

25Avalon

Trurider you are banging your head on a brick wall. I suggest abandoning this thread as they will never ever concede any point you make. Sad really.

It seems from the rude replies that you’re right☹️
As someone who voted to remain in the EU I was disappointed with their attitude about us staying in the Horizon programme ( and no, being out of the club shouldn’t have had anything to do with it.) Countries not in the EU are in Horizon.It was used as a bargaining chip by the EU, sadly.
Anyone who thinks the EU doesn’t do anything like that needs to think again.

How do you work out that that she's right?

Sorry, but the logic is flawed.

Incidentally, who are "they"? The cat's mothers?

It would be worth discussing with people who actually have direct experience of applying for and receiving Horizon funding and how the whole system worked.

I see that the U.K. is being reported to the UN over its strike law - it breaks international standards apparently.

*25 Avalon*: "Not being in the EU meant we got our own vaccine for Covid first and we have been able to help Ukraine. Brexit deniers will not accept any of this so I’m off for more worthwhile persuits."

Why on earth should anyone accept your points when they are based on wishful thinking?
I had the first covid vaccination one week before my cousin in Sweden; a member state of the EU. The subsequent vaccinations my cousin had before I did. Deal with that please.

FACT CHECK

1. The ability to develop and distribute the covid vaccination independently would have no affect if we had still been members of the EU. There is nothing in EU law that would prevent this.

2. As members of the EU a country can help Ukraine under two umbrellas. Firstly as a joint member giving vast quantities of aid under the EU umbrella, and second as an independent country. The two biggest independent contributors are France and Germany.

FACT CHECK

Horizon.

The U.K. was excluded from the Horizon programme because after agreeing and signing the NI protocol over how the U.K. withdrawal would be managed in NI - Johnson went off on a tangent and regardless of the risk to the peace process took independent action in relation to goods travelling between mainland Britain, NI and the EU single market.

The EU used the Horizon programme as a tool to get the U.K. to abide by the signed agreement.

It worked - remember Windsor?

Now the U.K. is allowed back in.

WWM, about the flags at the Last Night of the Proms. There is a furore about this by a few, but very much listened to, MPs. Outside the venue there were two people handing out flags, (photographic evidence of this on social media). One was distributing the Union flag, the other The EU flag. The audience chose and waved the flags they wanted. This happens in a democratic society.
Those MPs expecting the BBC 'to do something about it' are wishing to suppress audience choice. That is nothing less than DICTATORSHIP, and that inclination should be eradicated in a free society.

There are quite a few authoritarian MPs in the Tory party.

We are allowed choice as long as they approve.

I think that the flags were provided by the Musicians union who have been so badly hit by Brexit.

The music industry is one of the ones most affected by Brexit, another group of people that leave voters didn’t care about.