Lawrence Fox

Kandinsky

*I do not support what he said but the mob mentality reminds me of a lynching*

100%

The ‘woke’ brigade hate him because he’s a white heterosexual male who dares to disagree with them.

Who are 'the woke brigade', and what evidence do you have for your assertions about why they 'hate him'? Who 'hates' white heterosexual men? And what is it that 'the woke brigade' disagree with?

This discussion has really made me think and when I look back over the years, I realise just how many men I know have committed suicide. One of my best teenage friends, my Mum's friend, my sister's fiancee, my son's best friend from school, my ex flat mate and others I knew more vaguely. Even my stepson had to move back home on 24 hour watch because of the plans he was making to kill himself. In that time, the only females I know who attempted suicide were my mother and my sister but I'm not sure that their attempts were a serious intention to end life but a cry for help. All of the above were well planned and done in such a way that you'd have been really lucky to have stumbled upon them to save them and I suspect that is the difference between the two sexes. Woman are more likely to cry for help in the way they go about things whereas men don't. Obviously that is a generalised view from what I have seen but I think it explains why I think a Minister for Men isn't a bad thing. However, we need a complete overhaul of the mental health services because it isn't meeting the needs of anybody at the moment. Not for children, not for women and not for men.
Anniebach, please do not think what I am saying is trivialising what was happening with your daughter. I certainly wasn't and my heart goes out to you because I can't imagine the pain you must feel.

icanhandthemback it’s ok, you are so right about ‘cry for help’, and ‘serious intention’, men choose for example hanging , women ‘medication’, my daughter jumped from a bridge into a river at night, serious intention. My concern is there are so many women to come who will know the same grief.

A thread - specifically about suicide - could indeed be started. My only misgiving is that the very title of it could be very distressing to some posters - including those who are just 'lurking'.

I appreciate that this particular thread is about Fox specifically, inevitably, the subject of suicide came into it - inevitably because that was what was being discussed, it triggered his rant, and although the two 'issues' are separate they've now become entwined.

Fox's antagonism towards those - especially women - who don't subscribe to his world view appears to be widely understood. Regardless of whatever the matter that 'triggers' him, he seems to fly into an uncontrollable rage which compels him to insult those who disagree with him. He has a real bee in his bonnet about 'political correctness' and 'woke-ism' and appears to think he's the voice of the victimised minority of Conservative, right-wing, demographic who need protecting from it, from those who are determined to destroy those 'British values'! And, as far as 'British' values are concerned - I do remember when televised debate was governed by a level of civility towards those taking part; when panellists, presenters or those being interviewed appeared to understand impartiality and accuracy and, however 'emotional' a topic, would adhere to the standards expected in public debate, and not give way to temper tantrums or vulgar, demeaning insults. For the most part. Fox has lowered the bar on those 'British values'.

Suicide by men came into it, bringing a deliberate avoidance of
subject by MsE.

I think I would prefer to see a Minister for MH, responsible for a team of people each with responsibility for different areas - Men, Women and Children. Some initiatives could benefit all groups, so having separate or competing departments would be detrimental. Others might need to be considered independently, and that could also happen.

I think it is absolutely necessary to give a lot more resources to MH as a matter of urgency, though.

Good post Doodle. One ministry for mh with specific areas of specialism. It may have helped raise awareness of the problems at the Tavistock earlier had mh been prioritised by a govt department

Annie i join others is acknowledging your first hand and devastating experience of suicide. I haven’t trawled back but may have suggested someone start a thread on male suicide. If I did, it wasn’t pointed at you

Anniebach

Suicide by men came into it, bringing a deliberate avoidance of
subject by MsE.

I've always read what you've written about the tragedy of your dear daughter's suicide - trying to even imagine how she felt, and how you coped with it. Still cope with it.

Expressions of sympathy and little bunches of cyber flowers don't really reflect how much people empathise. You don' even have to know someone personally to feel profound sadness for the loss of an adult child.

Expressions of sympathy and little bunches of cyber flowers don't really reflect how much people empathise.

Agreed, Dickens. I remember the shock when we heard that my son's best friend had hung himself. We'd known he had been troubled and really felt for him but the shock I felt on behalf of his parents still lives on. I just can't imagine how devastating that must have been if it still makes my heart stop when I think about it.

Anniebach

Dickens I was instructed here to start another thread if I wanted to speak of suicide , my adored daughter ended her life
6 years ago . A man takes his life , so often this leaves a mother ,
grandmother, wife, sisters, daughters, no matter here it’s nothing to do with women .

I'm sorry this was said Anniebach.

Thank you all, I didn’t want to start another thread, I wouldn’t want it about me. definitely much money is needed .

It isn't that he disagreed with Ms Evans it is that he took it to a personal level with is comments. He is a pig of a man and nothing excuses what he said.

The only difference between LF and many of the women critizing him, is he said what he thought on TV, he didn’t hide behind an anonymous username on the internet.

I’ve lost count of the posts I’ve seen by women when saying things like ‘imagine sleeping with that? when spilling out their usual hatred for right wing men like Nigel Farage. But it’s ok to say things about them because they’re right wing men & you can be as rotten as you like about them, other women just laugh along.
So what’s the difference?
People hide behind anonymity on the internet - they’re as bad as LF deep down, many probably worse.

So what if he doesn’t find a particular woman attractive? Why does that offend people so much?
The saddest thing about this mountain out of a molehill is the very serious subject of male suicide has been completely overshadowed.

Typical really.

Kandinsky - how many misogynistic comments, death and rape threats by men have you found

I’m only on here & mumsnet, but I’ve seen enough awful posts about men on these two sites.
At the time of the referendum there were posts on mumsnet saying they wished Nigel Farage had died in the helicopter crash he was in. People ( assuming women as it was mumsnet ) just laughed.

Yes, I’m not disagreeing with you Kandinsky, some women make critical, dismissive comments about men. We live in an increasingly polarised society, that’s reflected in the comments you criticise.
We should never forget the extent of horrific physical, sexual, emotional, psychological abuse men perpetrate against women. One woman a week is murdered by a man, often a partner, often when the woman is trying to leave.
That’s one of the reasons I see men like Tate and Fox as increasing the risk women face

Kandinsky

So what if he doesn’t find a particular woman attractive? Why does that offend people so much? hmm

As I am one of the "offended" - I will answer.

Because it wasn't about a particular woman that he didn't find attractive.

It was the kind of response that men infrequently make (and sometimes women) when they want to demean their opponent, rather than challenge them on the matter they are discussing. It's as simple as that.

In common parlance, it's playing the man, not the ball. Fox also acknowledged that is what he did, in a later video statement - and recognised that not only had he demeaned Evans... he had demeaned himself. by his outburst. Either you see it, or you don't.

'I think your policy on badminton is rubbish'

'Look at the state of you - who would want to get into bed with that?'

Can you not see how puerile and sexist that is?

Yes, it was a very childish thing to say & I’m sure he regrets it.
But it isn’t as serious as other things that are happening in the news.
This thread has hundreds of posts,
so many people wanting to talk about LF not wanting to shag someone.

A few days ago a 15 year old girl was stabbed to death on her way to school by a 17 year old male.
Where’s the outcry?
Where’s the thread with 100’s of posts?

Can’t you see the link between the boy stabbing the girl and violence against women ?
Misogynists like Fox and Tate fuel the fire.

There is a thread on the stabbing Kandinsky. Maybe you haven’t seen it

Kandinsky

The only difference between LF and many of the women critizing him, is he said what he thought on TV, he didn’t hide behind an anonymous username on the internet.

I’ve lost count of the posts I’ve seen by women when saying things like ‘imagine sleeping with that? when spilling out their usual hatred for right wing men like Nigel Farage. But it’s ok to say things about them because they’re right wing men & you can be as rotten as you like about them, other women just laugh along.
So what’s the difference?
People hide behind anonymity on the internet - they’re as bad as LF deep down, many probably worse.

So what if he doesn’t find a particular woman attractive? Why does that offend people so much?
The saddest thing about this mountain out of a molehill is the very serious subject of male suicide has been completely overshadowed.

Typical really.

That’s not the only difference Kandinsky. The big difference isn’t that he said it on TV, it’s that he said it in the course of his employment. That’s quite different to an individual making a personal comment, when they aren’t being paid to take part in a debate.

This thread has hundreds of posts,
so many people wanting to talk about LF not wanting to shag someone.
No. People are talking about Fox's deliberate sexism and casual misogyny on a TV channel.

Not only that, his not wanting to shag AE is academic, surely - she is well out of his league. The assumption that not wanting sex with her is an insult is just further misogyny.

and it is so commonplace that he thought it was quite alright to say out loud on television. No wonder women have to protect themselves on nights out