Charitable status and private schools

Grantanow

It's time for Starmer to remedy Labour's mistake under Attlee and abolish the public/private schools.

Why?

Why not ban private medical care, home ownership, anything that some people might work and strive for? Even private enterprise.
Everyone earning the same salary, living in grey blocks.

Everything State owned, everyone equal (apart from the Government of course).

Then wait for the revolution when people want to throw off the shackles of communism.
Hasn't this been tried already and rejected? 🤔
Visiting countries newly liberated from the Soviet Union was very interesting.

Grantanow

It's time for Starmer to remedy Labour's mistake under Attlee and abolish the public/private schools.

Starmer won’t do that, and I don’t think it is necessary.

However, what I would like him to concentrate on is having the best education possible for our children, who should be seen as a country’s asset, where education brings innovative, creative and cultured individuals who would have so much to contribute to society and the economy.

Katie59

The IFS calculate that adding VAT onto school fees and removing the tax breaks would be a net gain of £1.6 Billion (even taking into about the cost of having to absorb some children into the state system)

If say half of the private children went to state schools instead the capacity would have to rise by 3.5%, at todays costs thats over £4Bn it’s a no win situation.
The fact is that private parents are saving the state £7500 per child per year.

There are no votes on the issue either because anyone who feels strongly is going to vote Labour anyway

Thanks Kate59
I am sure that the figures would prove that it is not economically advantageous to close public and private schools.

Grantanow

It's time for Starmer to remedy Labour's mistake under Attlee and abolish the public/private schools.

No

The IFS calculate that adding VAT onto school fees and removing the tax breaks would be a net gain of £1.6 Billion (even taking into about the cost of having to absorb some children into the state system)

If say half of the private children went to state schools instead the capacity would have to rise by 3.5%, at todays costs thats over £4Bn it’s a no win situation.
The fact is that private parents are saving the state £7500 per child per year.

There are no votes on the issue either because anyone who feels strongly is going to vote Labour anyway

Grantanow the major public schools can’t be abolished - they have contingency plans and land overseas to relocate if necessary. In fact a number of public schools already have established schools overseas.
Surely it makes better sense to widen access rather than limit it?

BlueBelle

If all the rich parents had to send their children to state schools look how they would improve all the best teachers flocking to get jobs in them !!!

MATT funny 👍

All the rich parents would relocate to "nice" parts of London, Surrey, Hertfordshire for schools, but sadly the teachers wouldn't be able to afford to move and live in these areas!!
If the IFS report shows no downwards movement in private school attendance over 20 years, despite recessions, then these institutions must be doing a pretty good job at riding the waves!

It's time for Starmer to remedy Labour's mistake under Attlee and abolish the public/private schools.

From today’s Sunday Telegraph.
🤣

BlueBelle

If all the rich parents had to send their children to state schools look how they would improve all the best teachers flocking to get jobs in them !!!

It’s not a legal requirement to have any teaching qualifications to teach in an Independent school, so not all of those
teachers would be rushing to state schools.

If all the rich parents had to send their children to state schools look how they would improve all the best teachers flocking to get jobs in them !!!

Btw Luke Sibieta is named as the author of the IFS report- who is Emma Monk?

Whitewavemark2

IFS report on proposal of VAT on private schools

t.co/5IPVDTPJyd

Ww2 the author of the report has been in higher education for at least 10 years- at what cost to the taxpayer?
The author has posted a cv online showing universities attended but there’s no mention of schools attended.
I am appalled by the lack of thought the report shows.

This is information posted on twitter. The person was privately educated as were her children she is a molecular scientist.

Emma 💛💙🇩🇰🇬🇧🇪🇺
@MonkEmma

So, how do Private schools benefit from their charitable status?

⏺️80% reduction in Business Rates
⏺️Claim Gift Aid on donations
⏺️No tax payable on their profits
⏺️No tax payable on their investment income
⏺️Stamp Duty relief
⏺️Covid loans

State schools not eligible for👆🏼

The Business rate reduction is thought to deprive local authorities of between £100 million and £144 million per year.

In Scotland this was removed from Private schools recently - so it’s perfectly possible to do!

The reason they’re eligible for all these financial benefits is that they’re classed as “charities” on the basis that they provide education (Tufton Street think tanks fall
Under this category too

But Private schools provide lots of charity to disadvantaged children, right?

Umm… not so much

Only 1% of children in private school come from the most deprived backgrounds

Many provide scholarships but this is usually 10% off the fees - totally unattainable to most

But private schools benefit local schools through partnerships, don’t they?

That, too, seems fairly minimal.

Inviting local kids to watch their theatre productions, and joint Carol singing forms the majority of the “partnerships”

I’m sure some schools do offer more meaningful partnerships, but as that report found, it’s rarely benefitting the most disadvantaged, and more often than not, used as a marketing exercise aimed at attracting new students.

Ok, so on to the claims about who would be affected by adding VAT to fees and/or removing tax breaks

Firstly, the IFS calculate that the net effect of adding VAT to fees would be a 15% increase in costs.

But that wouldn’t have to be passed on to parents

Schools could absorb the costs in the short term by
⏺️lowering fees so parents pay the same
⏺️increasing class sizes
⏺️Not buy new equipment/swimming pools🤪 for a couple of years
⏺️dip into their investments
⏺️Sell off amenities
And they can always apply to become academies
10/

Don’t forget, the top Private schools increased their assets by 44% form 2015-2020!

There’s definitely a bit of wriggle room there!
But not all parents are rich…

That’s certainly true, but it’s all relative!

The overwhelming majority are at the top end of the income ladder

A small minority aren’t, but if you can afford £15K (average) from your taxed income AFTER paying all your bills, you’re not poor!

There’s a myth that adding VAT would cause a mass exodus into the state sector.

In the last 20 years, school fees have risen 55%, yet numbers have remained at a steady 6-7% throughout that period.

The IFS calculates that these tax increases might lead to just 3-7% lea

There are 9.1 million school age children in England

~560,000 private school children.

Even IF 7% of them moved, (and it wouldn’t happen at the same time, or straight away) that would be around 40K.

Last year, our state schools managed to absorb that from 🇺🇦,🇭🇰 and 🇦🇫

The IFS also points out that our state school population is set to fall by 100,000 per year in the next 7 years - more than enough to absorb ALL private school children!

Since 2010 the difference between what is spent on a state school child and a private school child has more than doubled.

While 560,000 children can afford to go to private school, 2.2 million children need free school meals, and that number is rising year on year.

The IFS calculate that adding VAT onto school fees and removing the tax breaks would be a net gain of £1.6 Billion (even taking into about the cost of having to absorb some children into the state system)

That’s not to be sniffed at!

It would raise much needed income.

It won’t lead to an “overwhelming” of state schools - the numbers simply don’t show that.

Private Schools could absorb some, if not all the costs.

MOST parents would find the money. If you can find £15K, you’ll find another £3K

It’s an emotive subject, I know.

Everyone wants the best for their children.

But only a privileged tiny minority can afford to send their children to private school.

They may forgo some luxuries to do so, but millions forgo luxuries simply to feed and clothe their kids.

I wasn't expecting any sort of credit. My comments were those saying public schools were subsidising private education.

I bought some new and some S/H for my 4 boys, they wore what was put out for them, they didn’t know or care wether it was new or not. I do remember new shoes were a problem all the other kids did their best to mess them up.

IFS report on proposal of VAT on private schools

t.co/5IPVDTPJyd

Kitty - we also had 5 children- ours were home-educated so would also have liked vouchers!

Random thoughts having read the thread.

We had 5 children in the Independent system and would have really welcomed a Voucher system.

I actually ran the 2nd hand uniform shops at one of the 'private' schools attended by my children.

The word 'posh' means so many different things to so many different people that it is a totally pointless word.

It is invidious for anyone to try to dictate how we spend our 'after tax' money.

If the Independent schools that were attended by our children closed, an awful lot of the pupils would return to China.

I don't drink coffee of any variety.

I have serious doubts about the principle of charging VAT on the provision of education, by anyone and at any level, from primary school to university.

Most people with school aged children pay taxes. If they choose to and are then able to pay extra to send their children to a private school I can’t see a problem. Free country and all that. Mine went to a mix of private and state and mostly they did have secondhand uniforms if they could get one from the school shop. If not, we got new ones. That applied to the state school as well. No big deal. School books were different because, in their ‘wisdom’ they change them every year so you have to get new ones. You have to buy school books for state schools as well, no difference in price.

Callistemon21

growstuff

Aveline

I still don't understand how people who's children go to private schools are somehow subsidised by those who don't. Surely it's the other way around. Private school parents pay their taxes which cover public sector schools yet their children don't take up spaces in them. Hence they pay twice.

People without children pay for schools too.

That rather proves Aveline's point.
Most of us pay for public services, including those who never use them

That was my point really. I can think of loads of public services my family and I have never used. We don't expect some kind of credit.

maddyone

I know you think it’s inferior Dinahmo.
I just think you can’t judge a person by the coffee they drink.

But you can judge those who drink one thing and, with no discussion, give a cheaper beverage to someone else.

Dinahmo"s husband was presumably perceived to be of a lower status. I think they should have at least given him a choice. "Are you OK with ground coffee or do you prefer instant?" ...and yes, I do know one person who does!

MaizieD

^Offset that against the VAT saved by the schools having charitable status and it is not surprising that Starmer knows it is really not worth pursuing, either politically or financially.^

Starmer has only 'u turned' on the removal of charitable status.

He's still going to enforce VAT where applicable. I'm sure that his team has worked out the implications and see it as worthwhile.

I am sure that 20% VAT will be entirely possible and probable.

My starting point was that, somehow, Keir Starmer must have missed that the removal of charitable status in private schools was discussed and studied at length last time round in 2006/7 but was deemed by educational lawyers to be far too complicated to implement. I remember attending conferences by top legal firms in London telling us this. I just wish he hadn't given the media the opportunity to make such a meal out of something that was never going to happen.

growstuff

Aveline

I still don't understand how people who's children go to private schools are somehow subsidised by those who don't. Surely it's the other way around. Private school parents pay their taxes which cover public sector schools yet their children don't take up spaces in them. Hence they pay twice.

People without children pay for schools too.

That rather proves Aveline's point.
Most of us pay for public services, including those who never use them