Charitable status and private schools

ronib

Well Labour just lost my vote.

Why? And does it matter in your constituency? You really are "just a number" under FPTP, you know. We all are.

I am in a marginal constituency DAR .

How would removing the opportunity to send children to independent schools change any of that DAR? This thread is about Labour’s plans for private schools and my comment which you have picked up was solely about state education. Any attempts to remove people’s choice to send their children to independent schools if they so wish are nothing to do with having ‘a fairer society’. It’s a case of ‘if I can’t afford it I’ll make sure you can’t have it’.

GrannyGravy13

The Government of the day regardless of its colour can improve state school standards whilst leaving fee paying schools alone.

And only culture warriors see any point in wiping out small numbers of schools before improving the ones the majority have to attend.

ronib

I am in a marginal constituency DAR .

Thank you ronib If you don't mind telling me, how did it vote last time?

Conservative DAR

Any attempts to remove people’s choice to send their children to independent schools if they so wish are nothing to do with having ‘a fairer society’. It’s a case of ‘if I can’t afford it I’ll make sure you can’t have it’.

Don't be silly, GSM. It's just an attempt to level the playing field a teeny bit.

I think it would be much better to invest more in state education to bring educational standards in state schools more into line with private schools. Then perhaps people wouldn't have to scrimp and save to send their children private because the local state school is dire.

Then we would know that those who opt for private education are just attempting to buy privilege for their children. Which doesn't seem particularly laudable to me.

Germanshepherdsmum your post of 10.08 is spot on in my opinion.

Improving the state system should not mean taking away the choice of patents to send their children to a fee paying school.

Will there be a knock on effect to restrict the use of private tutoring?

Germanshepherdsmum

How would removing the opportunity to send children to independent schools change any of that DAR? This thread is about Labour’s plans for private schools and my comment which you have picked up was solely about state education. Any attempts to remove people’s choice to send their children to independent schools if they so wish are nothing to do with having ‘a fairer society’. It’s a case of ‘if I can’t afford it I’ll make sure you can’t have it’.

If every child born in this country had an equal choice to every other child of having the best education possible then it wouldn’t matter. But while some people can send their children to schools where there will be smaller class sizes and more individual attention paid to them there will be no desire to improve state schools. Especially as the government is run by a majority of people that are the result of a private/public school education. I bet teachers in private schools don’t have to be a combination of teacher and social worker. Or find themselves under resourced. If a catchment area has two schools, one state and one fee paying, why would some parents choose to pay for their child to have the same education as a child at the state school if it wasn’t for the fact that the child at the fee paying school has a far better chance of doing well.

Yes this is a thread about some Labour Party thinking GSM However, it's bound to include our thinking as we are replying to it.

I, personally, I'm happy that they will use the VAT to improve States schools. We do generally pay tax on transactions, so I don't see that as a problem.

I have argued that choice should remain, against the hard-left culture warriors, on this forum for years. I haven't said anything different in this thread.

I don't understand what your gripe is.

ronib

Conservative DAR

That could be interesting

Was it my post of 03-Oct-23 09:55:53 you were hammering GSM?

Are you really saying I may not post it on this thread?

We can’t allow anyone to be better off than the next person can we, even if their parents have worked themselves into an early grave to give them some perceived advantage.

I have already said that I had a state education in the days of the eleven plus and grammar schools. My son also had a state education in the days of comprehensives. Most of our professional peers went to independent schools. We have not been disadvantaged in any way. Nevertheless I believe in a parent’s right to choose independent education if they can afford to, and despise a political party which wants to make that choice even more difficult, even impossible, for them if they are ordinary working people. It will make little or no difference to rich parents.

People on both sides of the discussion on this thread are promulgating their own views, rather than what Labour are saying they might do if elected. Dismantling the private education sector does not figure in their plans, to be clear.

Labour is no longer going to remove charitable status from private schools but will impose VAT on its income/fees.
Right?
Well that’s this week’s summary.
Not a good look for Labour.

Disadvantage doesn’t start in school, it starts in the womb.

pennyhapenny

"In 2022–23, average private school fees across the UK were £15,200 in today’s prices (net of bursaries and scholarships). This is £7,200 or nearly 90% higher than state school spending per pupil, which was £8,000 in 2022–23 (including day-to-day and capital spending). The gap between private school fees and state school spending per pupil has more than doubled since 2010, when the gap was about 40% or £3,500."

Please correct my maths if I'm wrong...
x goes to private school and their parents pay £15,200 per year. x's parents save the taxpayer £8000 per year for state education.
Labour put VAT on private school fees and x's parents can no longer afford to pay the fees. x now has to go to a state school at a cost to the taxpayer of £8000 per year. The treasury will not be in receipt of any VAT payments from x's parents.
Extra cost to the taxpayer £8000.
In addition, private schools PAY VAT on all the goods and services they buy. IT equipment, new buildings, educational supplies. So if they have to close, the exchequer will not be receiving this money either.
The vast majority of private schools are not like Eton, Harrow, Westminster etc. They are not elitist and provide excellent education with pupils leaving to become badly needed doctors, engineers, lawyers etc. I could go on, but believe me, most are brilliant schools and many parents make substantial sacrifices so that their children can attend.

You are not understanding the way in which VAT works. The VAT paid on purchases is deducted from the VAT received on fees. The net amount is paid over to the exchequer, unless the input tax in one quarter exceeds the output tax, in which case the school would get a refund.

Suppliers, manufacturers, distributors, and retailers all collect VAT on taxable sales.

A simple example:

I make childrens' toys which I sell to a number of shops.

In the first quarter, assuming that I haven't made any sales, I claim back all the VAT that I have paid for my materials and expenses.

2nd quarter I am still building up my stock but I do sell a few toys on which I charge VAT. My input tax (on materials etc) still exceeds my output tax on sales and so I get a refund.

3rd quarter - coming up to Christmas. I sell a lot and charge VAT on each sale. The VAT on my inputs is less and so I pay over a large sum to the Exchequer.

The shops who are buying my toys will claim back the VAT that they've paid me. They will then charge the customer VAT on their selling price (which will of course have a markup). Because it's coming up to Christmas they have a good quarter and also pay over a chunk to the Exchequer.

VAT is a tax that moves up through the suppliers of the goods, the makers and then the retailers until it reaches the final purchases - ie the public who cannot claim it back.

It is different to the old system of purchase tax when the final purchase pays the tax and there are no interim collections.

We can’t allow anyone to be better off than the next person can we, even if their parents have worked themselves into an early grave to give them some perceived advantage.

What a ridiculous statement, GSM. I'm surprised that anyone of your intelligence can make it.

Levelling the playing field between state and private education has nothing to do with not allowing people to be better off. If anything, it's trying to relieve people of the necessity of working themselves into an early grave...

Not that the posters who've told us on here that they worked to pay for private education for their children seem to have worked themselves into an early grave...

Levelling the playing field (or anything) has everything to do with not allowing anyone to be better off than the next person, regardless of effort. The aim of many in the Labour Party.

Germanshepherdsmum

Levelling the playing field (or anything) has everything to do with not allowing anyone to be better off than the next person, regardless of effort. The aim of many in the Labour Party.

No. That’s communism. The Labour Party is not the Communist party.

They have a great deal in common.

Germanshepherdsmum

They have a great deal in common.

To the same extent as the Tory Party do with fascism. There are extreme elements in the political system.

Who exactly are you accusing of not wanting one person to be better off than any one else GSM? That's would be the epitome of extremism. There are only a small proportion of extremists in any direction and I have never heard anyone say such a thing on GN.

I would guess most people might think the growth in inequality, encouraged and facilitated by this now teenage government, could do with pulling back but that is nothing to do with choices in education.

Why do you keep telling us about your education? What does that prove? Do you think somebody tells more of the truth if they went to an independent school or if they went to a state school or if they went to both? I really can't see how it makes any difference. You hold the opinion you hold for many and varied reasons.

Casdon

Germanshepherdsmum

They have a great deal in common.

To the same extent as the Tory Party do with fascism. There are extreme elements in the political system.

Exactly.

Dinahmo presumably private schools may reduce fees overall if total costs fall due to VAT repayments on capital expenditure, energy etc? Not forgetting that to maintain charitable status, a profit is not returned. Also remembering that Labour is allowing charitable status to remain. Bit of an own goal potentially ……