Sunak. Men are men and women are women.

The term used nowadays is actually thse with a dsd so that article must be a little out of date. And again they are not a third sex.

And the word thse tends to be written 'those' nowadays

Actually DSD is rejected by many intersex people. If you want up to date information this is the latest. The proposition that there are only two designations and sex is strictly a male/female concept is not accepted . interactadvocates.org/faq/#definition

Glorianny

Doodledog

What is the 'third possibility' you mention, Glorianny?

It is intersex as I think you well know Doodledog. Saying they don't want to be part of the trans discussion does not mean they just want to be forgotten. "Man is a man and woman is a woman simply denies their existence.
As it is estimated that 1-2 people in 100 are born intersex they should at least deserve a mention.
Rishi's concept means they must be one or the other, which in the past led to babies being operated on. I don't think anyone wants to see that happening.
www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity/whats-intersex
Acknowledging they exist might help.

Not only have I acknowledged that 'they' exist, but I have pointed out that I know two people with DSDs. Both resent the suggestion that they are 'trans', 'hermaphrodite' or 'intersex'. I appreciate that two people is not a representative sample, but neither of the people I know was aware of the issue until they wanted to have children, when investigations brought it to light. They are women with chromosomal abnormalities, not 'a third sex'.

Also, please don't talk to me as though I am a third-former. 'As I think you well know. . .' puts me in mind of a very condescending teacher speaking to a truculent teenager. I may disagree with you, but I do try to remain polite, even under provocation. You may think you know what I know, but in this case you were very wrong. For someone so keen on others being able to 'identify' how they choose, you are denying that right to people who are very much against that definition. Is there a word for that? Misdefining them? Deadsexing?

DSD these days is more commonly defined as differences of sexual development, which is an accurate and respectful description.

The people I know with a DSD detest the term intersex too. One discovered she had been born without ovaries when she had failed to start her periods by 16 years old. She is not some weird third sex she's as female as me, just lacks ovaries. If she'd been born with a limb missing or malformed in some way, we wouldn't classify her as something other than human.
Another I knew of was a classmate of my son, he was born with testicles absent. This was obviously discovered as a baby, and contingency plans for the use of hormones at the appropriate time were made. I don't know how he'd view being classed as intersex, we've had no contact since he was 10 years old and moved away.

Does using the problem that some women have with testosterone, justify the lying and cheating that men do to take part in female sport.
I’m sure I’ve seen this before

Mollygo

Does using the problem that some women have with testosterone, justify the lying and cheating that men do to take part in female sport.
I’m sure I’ve seen this before

It's all about attempts to justify the (erroneous) premise that people can choose which sex they want to be. Any straw that can be clutched is grabbed to try to construct an opposition to the biological reality that sex change is impossible.

Yes, people can, may and should be able to live their lives as they choose. Yes, there are some men who would prefer to be women, and vice versa. Yes, some people want to opt out of so-called 'gender' altogether. That is all fine.

What is not fine is when people then insist that everyone plays along with their fantasies and pretends that they are the sex they want to be. It is not fine when male people demand access to spaces that were set up to be for women only. Why do they think these places exist? Why do they see themselves as somehow 'above' the rules that apply to everyone else?

It is not fine when categories for sport are disrupted by male bodybuilders competing against women. Or when research into sex-based differentials is disrupted because males identifying as women categorise themselves as such. Or when sex crimes are recorded as having been committed by women, despite the fact that a penis is used.

It is not fine when children are encouraged to believe that there is such a thing as 'the wrong body', and that anyone who enjoys anything traditionally and stereotypically associated with a gender should 'transition' to that gender, instead of just enjoying doing whatever it is. It is not fine for children to be given puberty blockers, or put on courses of 'treatment' that may lead to surgery or will require a lifetime of expensive drugs.

What is definitely not fine is when the language is corrupted so that it is increasingly difficult to even discuss men and women in a meaningful way. There are those who think that 'women' means 'anyone who says that is what they are', and others who use the term as it has been used for millennia, to mean 'someone born female who has grown into an adult'. That is why simple sentences such as 'Women's spaces will be protected' have become meaningless - a frightening development.

Pretending that accepting different definitions of sex, and using meaningless pronouns is 'inclusionary' is gaslighting, and it is also denying women our history, our commonality and our single-sex rights.

None of this is about sexuality, so comparisons to gay people are disingenuous or mistaken. It is about 'gender', which means different things to different people, and it is about power, which men gain from having access to all areas that women occupy, whether we like it or not.

Doodledog

Glorianny

Doodledog

What is the 'third possibility' you mention, Glorianny?

It is intersex as I think you well know Doodledog. Saying they don't want to be part of the trans discussion does not mean they just want to be forgotten. "Man is a man and woman is a woman simply denies their existence.
As it is estimated that 1-2 people in 100 are born intersex they should at least deserve a mention.
Rishi's concept means they must be one or the other, which in the past led to babies being operated on. I don't think anyone wants to see that happening.
www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity/whats-intersex
Acknowledging they exist might help.

Not only have I acknowledged that 'they' exist, but I have pointed out that I know two people with DSDs. Both resent the suggestion that they are 'trans', 'hermaphrodite' or 'intersex'. I appreciate that two people is not a representative sample, but neither of the people I know was aware of the issue until they wanted to have children, when investigations brought it to light. They are women with chromosomal abnormalities, not 'a third sex'.

Also, please don't talk to me as though I am a third-former. 'As I think you well know. . .' puts me in mind of a very condescending teacher speaking to a truculent teenager. I may disagree with you, but I do try to remain polite, even under provocation. You may think you know what I know, but in this case you were very wrong. For someone so keen on others being able to 'identify' how they choose, you are denying that right to people who are very much against that definition. Is there a word for that? Misdefining them? Deadsexing?

I'm sorry but f you ask question which you well know the answer to who exactly is being manipulative here?

Of course intersex or DSD people are perfectly entitled to use whatever term they find acceptable. And if they do not wish to be involved in any discussion about trans issues that is also their right. However to over simplify facts to fit a preconceived agenda is not acceptable. "Men are men and women are women", very much turns the issue into a "join one side of the other" debate. Which resulted in the past with babies having surgery so they could be put into a category. Most would now see that as completely unacceptable. But what else is "Men are men and women are women" doing? And surgery on these babies is still undertaken and is perfectly legal in many countries.

The point is that categorising and insisting that there are absolutes causes damage.
Only if you open the debate to wider ideas and stop trying to categorise them as this or that. can you look at people as individuals.

The issue of women in sport is one example of how men have mistreated women, and still do so. It is nothing to do with transpeople but to do with trying to set limits to what a woman is and it damages other women. Now you may think that is nothing to do with the statement, but if you believe "women are women" and you set certain standards you may damage other women. They are effectively made non-women, because they don't reach your standard.

Once you accept that there are people who don't fit the two divisions concept then you have to look more carefully at the whole subject
And even if you don't accept it. It seems obvious if some women are not permitted to take part in women's sports it must be "Men are men and women are women and some people are neither" But designating them as "neither" is surely not acceptable.

The presence of men in womens sports has been incredibly damaging, many athletes are speaking out and many female teams are now refusing to compete.

Actually all sides of the debate damages those with a dsd, many men with a dsd have been exploited by those in sport, who seek out very young men with a dsd and direct them to womens sport.

Glorianny

Of course intersex or DSD people are perfectly entitled to use whatever term they find acceptable. And if they do not wish to be involved in any discussion about trans issues that is also their right. However to over simplify facts to fit a preconceived agenda is not acceptable. "Men are men and women are women", very much turns the issue into a "join one side of the other" debate. Which resulted in the past with babies having surgery so they could be put into a category. Most would now see that as completely unacceptable. But what else is "Men are men and women are women" doing? And surgery on these babies is still undertaken and is perfectly legal in many countries.

The point is that categorising and insisting that there are absolutes causes damage.
Only if you open the debate to wider ideas and stop trying to categorise them as this or that. can you look at people as individuals.

The issue of women in sport is one example of how men have mistreated women, and still do so. It is nothing to do with transpeople but to do with trying to set limits to what a woman is and it damages other women. Now you may think that is nothing to do with the statement, but if you believe "women are women" and you set certain standards you may damage other women. They are effectively made non-women, because they don't reach your standard.

Once you accept that there are people who don't fit the two divisions concept then you have to look more carefully at the whole subject
And even if you don't accept it. It seems obvious if some women are not permitted to take part in women's sports it must be "Men are men and women are women and some people are neither" But designating them as "neither" is surely not acceptable.

Perhaps we shouldn't be debating the matter using Sunak's 'catchy' mantra as the yardstick?

Regardless of which side you are taking - most of us believe that he is playing to the gallery - it's not a new ploy is it, and it really doesn't help to talk about the issues involved using his headline-grabbing catchphrase as the benchmark.

Glorianny the people you designate as 'intersex' are either male or female, there is no third sex. DNA testing can identify every single human as either male or female regardless of whether their sexual development proceeded along the usual lines. By you saying they're not male or female, you are saying they are neither, it's you that is 'othering' them.

... Glorianny - what I mean is, I don't think Sunak cares that much about women, nor men, nor the trans community - if he did he'd have used more sophisticated language to talk about the matter. And although I might agree with him in principle, it was a dog-whistle - and I certainly wouldn't choose him to champion the cause.

I don't think he's in touch with anything other than fighting to retain his position, and the country's accounts ledger.

Men are male and women are female.
Men who claim to be women for the purpose of cheating and lying are the people who have caused the current problems.
Females and males who refuse to acknowledge this are part of the problem.

Oh no sunak doesnt care, as I said the Tories were mired in this nonsense for years.

I'm sorry but f you ask question which you well know the answer to who exactly is being manipulative here?
I didn't know what you were referring to, which is why I asked 🙄. How could I know what you were talking about? What's manipulative about asking?

Rosie51

Glorianny the people you designate as 'intersex' are either male or female, there is no third sex. DNA testing can identify every single human as either male or female regardless of whether their sexual development proceeded along the usual lines. By you saying they're not male or female, you are saying they are neither, it's you that is 'othering' them.

Yes, and that is why I asked what Glorianny meant. Now we know. It was 'Intersex' - a term which is resisted by those being labelled as such, for exactly the reasons you describe, Rosie.

Oh well, if their DSD is being used in an attempt to fuel the TWAW cause, perhaps they should just accept that they are collateral damage?

Oh well, if their DSD is being used in an attempt to fuel the TWAW cause, perhaps they should just accept that they are collateral damage? Exactly Doodledog, women, people with a DSD, people of colour, homosexual and bisexual people.....they're all just collateral damage in the TWAW cause. As India Willoughby, that wonderful transwoman, says "If Black women are women then so am I!" (except India likes to write "blackwomen, all one word" and thinks that's clever )

Mollygo

Men are male and women are female.
Men who claim to be women for the purpose of cheating and lying are the people who have caused the current problems.
Females and males who refuse to acknowledge this are part of the problem.

So what are the women who are refused permission to take part in women's sports Mollygo?

They have a condition which only impacts males if that's what you mean.
Unless you mean transmen who cant compete because of their testosterone level.

Rosie51

Glorianny the people you designate as 'intersex' are either male or female, there is no third sex. DNA testing can identify every single human as either male or female regardless of whether their sexual development proceeded along the usual lines. By you saying they're not male or female, you are saying they are neither, it's you that is 'othering' them.

I'm not othering anyone. The evidence is there women athletes are not permitted to compete as women, they are not recognised as women, so they are "othered". But apparently Men are men and women are women.
Explain to me what these women are

Doodledog

Rosie51

Glorianny the people you designate as 'intersex' are either male or female, there is no third sex. DNA testing can identify every single human as either male or female regardless of whether their sexual development proceeded along the usual lines. By you saying they're not male or female, you are saying they are neither, it's you that is 'othering' them.

Yes, and that is why I asked what Glorianny meant. Now we know. It was 'Intersex' - a term which is resisted by those being labelled as such, for exactly the reasons you describe, Rosie.

Oh well, if their DSD is being used in an attempt to fuel the TWAW cause, perhaps they should just accept that they are collateral damage?

It isn't anything to do with trans matters simply a question of a single statement which is either true or not true.
I've asked the question what are the women athletes who are not permitted to take part in women's athletics?

I’ve heard this argument both from G & T.
Women are women. Males are not.
Are you saying the issue faced by some women means they aren’t women?
That’s as appalling as the problems they already face.
Males are never female whatever they do or claim.