Sunak. Men are men and women are women.

LizzieDrip

I repeat Doodledog, minority groups fighting against each other plays into the hands of the bigots - doing their work for them. You’re entitled to your opinion on the subject; I’m entitled to mine.

That accusation - playing into the hands of the bigots - is frequently levelled at those who openly want to debate the position taken by TW, that TWAW (though there are exceptions to this belief among TW).

As women, we are affected, what you are implying is that we should keep quiet. When women fought for their rights - going as far back as the right to a vote - it angered and stirred-up the bigots, particularly men, some of whom punished women for daring to challenge their supremacy.

Yes, the RW media will stir the pot, and it's a terrible state of affairs that we have such a biased media. The alternative is that we capitulate, keep quiet and just allow events to unfold. We cannot do that. The bigots have always and will always exploit things for their own ends - but we are not responsible for their bigotry, and they should be called out on it, rather than us being intimidated to shut up because of it.

Some transgender individuals use this reason to close down debate, they should be challenging them not trying to silence people with emotional blackmail who have a legitimate grievance about their rights being infringed.

FWIW, those doing the most damage to the TG community are the minority of individuals who are out on the street waving threatening placards at TERFS. And they, the most volatile, are MEN. And men are not a minority group.

My sentiments exactly.
All this gender shite does my head in.
You are what you were born as, male or female, no ifs or buts.

Doodledog

Which fighting minority groups are you talking about? Last time I looked, women don't form a minority group, and they are the ones suffering most.

So true, but so sad.

Which fighting minority groups are you talking about

Lesbians and trans women.

LizzieDrip

*Which fighting minority groups are you talking about*

Lesbians and trans women.

Obviously I don't know your sexuality, but if you went to a dating event in the hope of meeting someone you would be attracted to, would you want to find people from whichever is the 'wrong' sex for you? And how would you feel if someone who was clearly the wrong sex told you that no - they are the sex they want to be, and if you don't fancy them you must be transphobic?

If you are bisexual that might not matter, presumably, but otherwise it would be a waste of your time, particularly if the event had been advertised as being what you were looking for.

Lesbians are, by definition, attracted to women, and transwomen are, by definition, male. Why should they be expected to 'be kind' and pretend that transwomen are women? Specially when they have a visible erection?

It's not a case of squabbling - it's a case of not letting a determined group of extremists take away something that a group of women had organised for themselves.

Lesbians are, by definition, attracted to women, and transwomen are, by definition, male. Why should they be expected to 'be kind' and pretend that transwomen are women? Specially when they have a visible erection?

Sorry - badly worded. That should say 'why should lesbians be expected to 'be kind' and pretend that TWAW? Specially when the transwoman in question has a visible erection?'

Lesbians had no quarrel with transwomen - they just didn't fancy them, since they are attracted to female bodies, not the bodies of males who have labelled themselves as women.

In the past, males who discovered that a female they fancied didn't fancy them and didn't want to fall immediately into bed with them would say that she must be either a lesbian, or frigid.

Now a second speed-dating event organised by lesbians and for lesbians has been disrupted by ostentatiously male-bodied transwomen. They had caused the first attempt to run it to be cancelled because those attending asked the transwomen to stay away - as they didn't fancy them. (Since the whole point of a speed-dating event is to meet a lot of people you DO fancy, that seems to me a perfectly reasonably request.)

That isn't two minority groups fighting one another. It is trans activists claiming that it is their right to have sex with lesbians because they choose to, while denying the lesbians the right to choose who they have sex with and who they don't.

Thanks, Elegran. It's so dismissive to write it off as 'fighting one another' - it goes so much deeper than that.

I posted before adding that the two scenarios are very similar - women being blamed and dismissed as lesbians because a specific man who was harassing them didn't trigger any desire in them, and lesbians being blamed and targeted because they wanted an event that did not include a particular type of men - ones who were self-identifying as women.

Of course this all comes from Stonewall's assertion that lesbian women and gay men should be "gender" attracted. Lesbians and Gays are homosexual........homo means the same....sexual obviously refers to sex.....so same sex attracted. Equally heterosexuals are.... hetero meaning other.... the other sex attracted. Bisexual is self explanatory, bi from the Latin meaning both, attracted to both sexes. How anyone can determine somebody's internal 'gender identification' is beyond me. Humans are good at determining the sex of those they meet, evolution has equipped us to read the smallest of clues.
I'd be more inclined to believe in 'gender attraction' if transwomen lesbians actively sought out, or were at least happy with, other transwomen lesbians.

I like how you’ve explained that Rosie51. Your last paragraph in particular. But I’m puzzled. transwomen lesbians attracted to other transwomen lesbians . . . would be like homosexual transmen being attracted to homosexual transmen.
Anything else is heterosexual.

You know that, and I know that, but apparently the superior intelligence 'gender ideologists' tell us otherwise.

Rosie51

Of course this all comes from Stonewall's assertion that lesbian women and gay men should be "gender" attracted. Lesbians and Gays are homosexual........homo means the same....sexual obviously refers to sex.....so same sex attracted. Equally heterosexuals are.... hetero meaning other.... the other sex attracted. Bisexual is self explanatory, bi from the Latin meaning both, attracted to both sexes. How anyone can determine somebody's internal 'gender identification' is beyond me. Humans are good at determining the sex of those they meet, evolution has equipped us to read the smallest of clues.
I'd be more inclined to believe in 'gender attraction' if transwomen lesbians actively sought out, or were at least happy with, other transwomen lesbians.

I'm confused...

Why are TW lesbians not attracted to other TW lesbians - if they are... lesbians?

Are they then only attracted to natal-women lesbians?

... which is then men wanting to have sex with... women - isn't it?

What am I missing?

I have the misfortune to have Rishi Sunak as my MP. Whilst I agree that he should be visible here, at the moment he is constantly in photos in the local paper. This is where a group or an individual has done a lot of charity work, or organised something to help the community in some way. He has not contributed one iota of effort but is always there to be in the photo when the work is done. Let him carry on as he is, losing the railway to this area, not sorting out the A1 etc etc. It will ensure that even those with very short memories will see why we need to get rid of the lot of them! I will make certain that the things I am involved in will not provide him with a photo shot!!

Sunak's statement is not obvious. There are still people who are born with chromosomal defects who will be distressed by this statement, as well as other people who are questioning their gender identity.

You bringing people with a dsd nto the debate distresses many in that group yet you have done it.

You bringing people with a dsd nto the debate distresses many in that group yet you have done it.

It’s Sunak’s simplistic, headline-grabbing, reductive statement that is offensive to those people. In one fell swoop he dismissed their existence. At least the previous poster acknowledges that this is not a straightforward, binary issue.

Many with dsds have been really clear that they do not want to be brought into to this debate, and that they are not some sort of third sex they are male or female. But am sure their offense is unimportant.

Galaxy

Many with dsds have been really clear that they do not want to be brought into to this debate, and that they are not some sort of third sex they are male or female. But am sure their offense is unimportant.

But saying a man is a man and a woman is a woman is surely bringing them into the debate anyway isn't it? It's limiting possibilities. If you refer to only two categories of anything and there is a third possibility you are by default denying the existence of that possibility. Which was I think a way of dealing with intersex people in the past, designating them either male or female and sometimes surgically altering them to make them conform. There were some terrible failures.

There are still some things operating in sport which negatively impact on anyone who doesn't fit completely into those narrow concepts. Women have died because of them and have been instructed to medicate themselves if they want to compete. It isn't really quite so simple is it?

Men are men and women are women. Even dsd do not argue that there is a third sex, nor do they claim to be what they are not.

What is the 'third possibility' you mention, Glorianny?

The Tories are using this issue, there is no doubt about that, and it's quite complex because they were very much part of the women can have a penis nonsense until Johnson realised it was a vote loser. Penny Mordaunt for example was very keen on self ID at one stage.
However if politicians go around saying women can have a penis, or born in the wrong body, or dress like a woman, or the classic Isla Bryson is a rapist, then those are unbelievably regressive simplistic statements and there should be absolutely no surprise that there was a reaction to that.

But am sure their offense is unimportant.

Unimportant to whom - Sunak!

Doodledog

What is the 'third possibility' you mention, Glorianny?

It is intersex as I think you well know Doodledog. Saying they don't want to be part of the trans discussion does not mean they just want to be forgotten. "Man is a man and woman is a woman simply denies their existence.
As it is estimated that 1-2 people in 100 are born intersex they should at least deserve a mention.
Rishi's concept means they must be one or the other, which in the past led to babies being operated on. I don't think anyone wants to see that happening.
www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity/whats-intersex
Acknowledging they exist might help.