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Israel, Hamas and now Hezbollah

(1001 Posts)
GrannyGravy13 Sun 15-Oct-23 17:27:05

A second thread to share our thoughts and prayers on this moving situation

Glorianny Thu 19-Oct-23 11:34:22

tickingbird

Israel aren’t sending death squads in to butcher and rape civilians. Before you start saying they do THEY DON’T.

The above to Glorianny

The Israelis have been shooting civilians for a long time. I posted the figures for the numbers of deaths earlier on this thread but they are here if you are interested www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
Over 5000 Palestinians killed, mostly civilians. Over 1000 of them children.
This idea that the violence is completely one sided really isn't supported by the evidence.
And these deaths are ones with at least 2 witnesses, there will be more.

foxie48 Thu 19-Oct-23 11:36:41

Surely Terrorist groups like Hamas will exist but it's the support from foreign govts that provides most of the money and it's poverty and lack of a future that supplies the recruits. If it is possible to take those two things away it is possible to reduce the ability of a terror group to act. That's why I am convinced that what the Israeli govt is doing in Gaza won't work. It may help to bring the divisions in Israel back together but I fear that it will lead to much more conflict and many more deaths than we have seen before. (eg the Reservists had refused to attend follow up training until the govt stepped back from the proposed reforms of the Judiciary but immediately stepped up to serve after the attacks by Hamas. )The solution has to be a geopolitical one involving all of the countries with something to win and something to lose by conflict. This is why Blinken and others are rushing round talking to heads of state in other countries. Iran is key, but Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Qatar etc all have an interest. Lets hope for everyone's sake they come up with a plan that stops the bloodshed.

Treelover Thu 19-Oct-23 12:17:45

The fundamental difference is that Hamas do not believe that this life is the real life...they believe in life after death which will reward them. Jews do not believe in a personal afterlife where they will be rewarded (by a thousand virgins (?) ...and what do women get in that afterlife?)
We must be careful not to patronise and wholly see as victims a culture whose present leadership intends to destroy the West as the West is seen as evil. Hamas and their ilk will kill fellow innocent Muslims, as they do not see that as a crime or sin, as they would be seen as sacrifices for their greater good, as they offer salvation to suicide bombers. I am appalled at the ignorance of the 'progressive left' as seeing them as heroes.

Namsnanny Thu 19-Oct-23 12:34:51

I agree with everything you've written Treelover
We cannot apply our values to Hamas actions.

discoqueen Thu 19-Oct-23 12:36:03

My stance on this conflict has changed. It has moved from disgust at the Hamas attacks on Israeli citizens, believing that Israel does have the right to defend itself but also knowing a little, now more, of the history of the way Palestinians in then occupied territories, have been treated by the Israeli government for over 70 years. Of course the Holocaust happened.
I think Hammas, an extreme group with their own agenda, could easily take advantage of/ be elected in this climate. No elections since 2007 .
The ordinary citizens of Gaza have had no protection from Hammas and continued human rights violations from the IDF and Israeli government. Abbas has little power. They have been described as cockroaches in a bottle as part of IDF training, Nazis referred to Jews as rats.
Both sides both Hammas and the IDF are suspected of indoctrinating young people. Both have said they want to anhialate the other. Both have been persecuted but Nakba is rarely mentioned in mainstream media. By Israel I mean government, not Jews, most likely now not many of the civilians of Israel who maybe didn't know what they were electing?
I now don't believe that the IDF is only hitting military targets. This is revenge on all of Gaza, who have been seen as cockroaches for some time and dehumanised.
Will post Guardian article re a lost generation. It is understandable that some young Gazans caught up in this brutality who survive would join extremist groups. Because for them there is nothing else.

Glorianny Thu 19-Oct-23 12:47:06

It would be interesting if those who keep telling us how Hamas will not negotiate (they have in the past) and what a terrible terrorist organisation they are could explain exactly what they consider can be done to eliminate them.

fancythat Thu 19-Oct-23 12:51:43

They negotiated in the past, so they could get some of their prisoners back again?

Namsnanny Thu 19-Oct-23 12:54:21

Hiding bombs under hospitals dosent fit the narrative that all would be fine if only Israel would give up this or that.
Putting civilians in danger plays to the fact that Israel doesnt want to kill innocent victims.
Otherwise why do it?

As I understand it the reason Hamas is actually in gov. Is because Israel withdrew from Gaza?

As for they have nothing else, when the afterlife is so important to get to, why choose to be a human shield?
Better to fight for later glory.

It's an ideology.

Katie59 Thu 19-Oct-23 13:06:27

As I understand it the reason Hamas is actually in gov. Is because Israel withdrew from Gaza?

Israel allowed Gaza to self govern, they then elected Hamas who promised a better life, but turned into extreme islamists intent on killing all Jews. The humanists in Israel obviously want peace but who is going to protect them from Hamas or Hezbollah.

JenniferEccles Thu 19-Oct-23 13:28:22

How could the Palestinians who voted Hamas in think that a known terrorist group would lead to a better life?
How many Palestinians still support them?
Judging by the sickening support for Hamas in London last week, it appears even here, plenty do.

GrannyGravy13 Thu 19-Oct-23 13:36:59

I am rushing between appointments, have just seen this, from someone whose Gran is still alive after surviving the Holocaust.

This is not acceptable in U.K. 2023

discoqueen Thu 19-Oct-23 13:44:35

Nakba is unacceptable as the holocaust.

JenniferEccles Thu 19-Oct-23 13:51:15

I was also horrified, but actually not surprised to read that Corbyn joined a demonstration in support of the Hamas regime.
He once described them as his friends. Starmer described Corbyn as his friend when he campaigned for him in the last election.
I’m sure a lot of voters will bear that in mind at the GE next year.

However, both Biden and Rishi Sunak have clearly stated that they are on the side of Israel to defend itself.

MayBee70 Thu 19-Oct-23 13:52:22

JenniferEccles

How could the Palestinians who voted Hamas in think that a known terrorist group would lead to a better life?
How many Palestinians still support them?
Judging by the sickening support for Hamas in London last week, it appears even here, plenty do.

Didn’t the BBC apologise and pointed out that the protests were pro Palestine and not pro Hamas and that the news report had been misleading?

discoqueen Thu 19-Oct-23 13:58:57

The war as I see it, and as reported, is Hammas versus the government of Israel.
Not all Gazans are Hammas. Jews are not represented by the government of Israel. I don't see Jews as being responsible for the present genocide of Gaza. There have been Jewish demonstrations again this, calling for a cease fire. The Israeli government are responsible, not sure about the people who voted for them,did they know, what they would get?

foxie48 Thu 19-Oct-23 14:15:28

Todays Radio 4 "Understand, Israel and The Palestinians" covered the neighbouring countries of The Lebanon and role of Hezbollah, Jordan and Egypt. Only 15 minutes long but answers some of the questions posted on this thread, eg why doesn't Egypt open it's borders to the Palestinians from Gaza, who are Hezbollah and why do they attack Israel, etc. Well worth 15 minutes of your time!

discoqueen Thu 19-Oct-23 14:15:37

I feel really disgusting and dirty atm knowing the our tax money is supporting a genocide. I feel ashamed to be British.

GrannyGravy13 Thu 19-Oct-23 14:27:09

discoqueen

I feel really disgusting and dirty atm knowing the our tax money is supporting a genocide. I feel ashamed to be British.

If Hamas were to return the innocent hostages (women, children, babies and elderly along with men) it could be a startling point for negotiations.

Glorianny Thu 19-Oct-23 14:33:46

GrannyGravy13

discoqueen

I feel really disgusting and dirty atm knowing the our tax money is supporting a genocide. I feel ashamed to be British.

If Hamas were to return the innocent hostages (women, children, babies and elderly along with men) it could be a startling point for negotiations.

If Israel were to stop bombing innocent civilians it would be a starting point for negotiations. There are over 3000 dead Palestinians. I saw UN jackets on people arriving injured at a Palestinian hospital on the news.

Glorianny Thu 19-Oct-23 14:37:33

In the last conflict Israel said they would bomb Gaza "back into the Middle Ages". They are simply repeating the process.
The Tory government of course stands on the side of the apartheid state- they've done that before haven't they?

discoqueen Thu 19-Oct-23 14:43:03

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-lost-generation-conditioned-to-worship-death-israel

GrannyGravy13 Thu 19-Oct-23 14:54:21

This⬇️

ronib Thu 19-Oct-23 15:00:01

GG13 it isn’t the job of The Jewish Chronicle to undertake security checks in this way - what are the relevant government departments/security services/police doing?

tickingbird Thu 19-Oct-23 15:01:34

Glorianny
^This idea that the violence is completely one sided really isn't supported by the evidence.*
And these deaths are ones with at least 2 witnesses, there will be more.

The violence two weeks ago was entirely one sided and any state having rockets fired into its territory on a regular basis is entitled to fire back.

You can excuse and deflect as much as you like but it doesn’t change the facts.

Grany Thu 19-Oct-23 15:04:08

I see this is from the Jewish Chronicle enough said they want support for the apartheid state and condemn any support for Palestine.

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