Israel and Palestine (thread 3)

LizzieDrip

‘’ We recognise for all of that to happen, there has to be a safer environment, which of course necessitates specific pauses – as distinct from a ceasefire,” Sunak said at prime minister's questions on Wednesday’’

Above is from The Guardian 1 day ago. So, Sunak is calling for ‘specific pauses’ rather than a full ceasefire. This is also what Keir Starmer is calling for. Yet Starmer, leader of the opposition, is criticised for ‘not calling for a ceasefire’ while Sunak, PM, is not criticised. Why?

If you are referring to Granys posts, she is not a fan of Sir Starmer and longs for the bygone days when Mr,Corbyn was leader of the Labour party…

Thanks GrannyGravy - I see now.

LizzieDrip

‘’ We recognise for all of that to happen, there has to be a safer environment, which of course necessitates specific pauses – as distinct from a ceasefire,” Sunak said at prime minister's questions on Wednesday’’

Above is from The Guardian 1 day ago. So, Sunak is calling for ‘specific pauses’ rather than a full ceasefire. This is also what Keir Starmer is calling for. Yet Starmer, leader of the opposition, is criticised for ‘not calling for a ceasefire’ while Sunak, PM, is not criticised. Why?

Because the Labour party has always had a substantial number of members and supporters who recognise the futility of war . Many of us marched against the illegal war in Iraq which another Labour leader took us into. Add to that a recognition that one country's terrorists are another country's freedom fighters and you have realisation of an impossible situation which will not be resolved by any war. The Labour leader is expected to take a moral stance on this issue. Unfortunately Starmer is as usual playing the lawyer (although he seems to have forgotten International Law which is odd for a Human Rights Lawyer) and is trying to pretend he isn't a supporter of Israel. He has in the past ignored Amnesty's report that Israel is an apartheid state.

Hamas lost any claim to be called ^freedom fighters* after their barbarism on 7/10.

Yes that attack was indeed barbaric. However, I'm angry that the UN and western countries have cast a blind eye to the long term infractions by Israel and the way they treated the people of Gaza and the West Bank. As others have said - you can't eliminate terrorists without creating more terrorists. A robust and fair two state solution is the only way ahead.

We should recognise as well that there is a long history of barbarism in the creation of the Israeli state which we have very much chosen to forget, but which for Hamas and those who join the terrorists will very much be part of their education. This story, of the destruction of an Arab village, whose people had signed a peace agreement with Jerusalem, but who were nonetheless murdered in the most brutal ways, has many accounts of rape, the butchering of pregnant women and their babies, is terrible en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre#:~:text=The%20Deir%20Yassin%20massacre%20took,agreed%20to%20a%20peace%20pact.
It's difficult to know how peace will ever be achieved.
But looking at and understanding the history is important

Glorianny

We should recognise as well that there is a long history of barbarism in the creation of the Israeli state which we have very much chosen to forget, but which for Hamas and those who join the terrorists will very much be part of their education. This story, of the destruction of an Arab village, whose people had signed a peace agreement with Jerusalem, but who were nonetheless murdered in the most brutal ways, has many accounts of rape, the butchering of pregnant women and their babies, is terrible en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre#:~:text=The%20Deir%20Yassin%20massacre%20took,agreed%20to%20a%20peace%20pact.
It's difficult to know how peace will ever be achieved.
But looking at and understanding the history is important

I really hope you are not trying to justify the events of 7/10/23 Glorianny

Led by Donkeys have issued a graph of children that have been killed in Israel snd palestine for every year since 2010 (I think)

It is truly, truly shocking.

I am sorry I can’t do links but perhaps someone else?

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

We should recognise as well that there is a long history of barbarism in the creation of the Israeli state which we have very much chosen to forget, but which for Hamas and those who join the terrorists will very much be part of their education. This story, of the destruction of an Arab village, whose people had signed a peace agreement with Jerusalem, but who were nonetheless murdered in the most brutal ways, has many accounts of rape, the butchering of pregnant women and their babies, is terrible en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre#:~:text=The%20Deir%20Yassin%20massacre%20took,agreed%20to%20a%20peace%20pact.
It's difficult to know how peace will ever be achieved.
But looking at and understanding the history is important

I really hope you are not trying to justify the events of 7/10/23 Glorianny

I really wish you would stop trying to make out I am justifying anything. All acts of barbarism are wrong. But the only way we can understand what is happening and the only way forward is to examine the events today and look at past events. And that means recognising both sides have sometimes been involved in actions which are unacceptable.
Now you may have no interest in past events, but both sides have pasts and those influence the views of their people today. And understanding those views is part of creating a peace process.
Raising your hands in horror and weeping may be a visceral reaction, but understanding is necessary to move forward.

Glorianny why do you assume that you have to educate us on the history of Israel and Palestine?

I for one and most other posters on this thread are well aware of the backstory.

It's a common approach to think that those who hold a different opinion need educating, it always makes me wince.

Sadly, I think you may well be right Katie.

WWM2. Thank you. I looked up your link. It is truly shocking. There is a quite colossal disparity in the number of children killed on the Palestinian side compared to the number of Israeli ones. Obviously, deaths of all children is tragic but the Palestinian families have had a very much more to bear. How was this allowed to go on for so long? How could a revolt like the Hamas atrocity not have been predicted?

Aveline

*WWM2*. Thank you. I looked up your link. It is truly shocking. There is a quite colossal disparity in the number of children killed on the Palestinian side compared to the number of Israeli ones. Obviously, deaths of all children is tragic but the Palestinian families have had a very much more to bear. How was this allowed to go on for so long? How could a revolt like the Hamas atrocity not have been predicted?

Quite.

Netanyahu allows Hamas because he doesn't want a two State solution Palestinians want peace but not Netanyahu see Chakrabaty explain this on QT

And choose to ignore it {*GG*As far as folk on here are concerned Israel is the only victim !Its as clear as day in the posts that Palestinians are ( in the main muslims /Arabs and are scum...and the poor Israeli nationals are the only victims .
For supposedly knowledgable women your sympathy lies with the wrong side .There will be hundreds of thousands of marchers on the streets this weekend all calling for justice for GAZA and support for Palestinians and yes I will be among
them .Israel is fast losing support since the insane bombing of civilians that has so far cost over 6000 lives .
I'm out of this thread ,banging my head against a wall is preferable to reading some of the posts from right wing war mongers .

paddyanne54 throwing out insults like far right wingers does not advance your argument.

Not one poster has not been sympathetic to the innocent civilians in Gaza.

Yet another post whereby you choose not to acknowledge the suffering caused by Hamas to the civilian population that elected them.

Thank goodness someone deleted for antisemitism is here to give us moral guidance.

UK political leaders bring shame on the country.

No state ‘on my watch’
Yet both main parties keep up the pretence they’re fundamentally committed to an alternative that liberates Palestinians. The two-state solution is still the main policy stand for both.
But nobody can in good faith deny that Israel has locked in the one-state reality of apartheid. Hence, it is ignorant at best and deliberately performative at worst; offering the veneer of compassion to Palestinian self-determination even as the facts on the ground scrupulously neutralise the possibility.
Indeed, in 2015, Benjamin Netanyahu said there will be no Palestinian state “on my watch”. Israel must “crush” Palestinian statehood ambitions, he reiterated this year.
True to his word, Netanyahu’s cabinet in 2023 have taken major steps towards annexation of the West Bank. A peak number of illegal settlements have been advanced by Israel this year concurrent with a ramping up in the number of house demolitions and subsequent forcible displacement of Palestinian communities.
Meanwhile, Netanyahu’s finance minister Bezalel Smotrich, who advocated for the wiping out of a Palestinian town, believes every part of Israel and the occupied territories was promised to Jews by God and Palestinians should either emigrate, be killed or forgo their national aspirations if they want to reside – with unequal rights.
It is of little shock Israel is flattening Gaza with such fascists in high office.

Accountability
And when the time comes to hold Israel to account for its harrowing war crimes, Britain will inevitably shield it from any accountability and block the attempts of the International Criminal Court and the International Court of Justice, as it did in 2021 and this year respectively.
All whilst the mass murder of Palestinians continues unabated.
It is the tragic story that has defined the Palestinian existence. In 1948, at least 750,000 Palestinians were expelled as their homes, villages and communities were systematically destroyed and occupied.

From

www.declassifieduk.org/uk-political-leaders-bring-shame-on-the-country/

An Israeli spokesman on Sky News just now has explained why it is within their rights to tell a hospital to evacuate all of it’s patients even though that would result in patients dying.He said that Hamas is a dictatorship. So why didn’t anyone suggest having an election in Gaza to give the Palestinians the chance to vote for another party? Why haven’t they had an election for so long? Can someone please explain that to me.

Just watching the news. Makes me so angry. I'd like to shake Netanyahu till his teeth rattle! For God's sake why is he still bombing Gaza. 😡😡😡

MayBee70

An Israeli spokesman on Sky News just now has explained why it is within their rights to tell a hospital to evacuate all of it’s patients even though that would result in patients dying.He said that Hamas is a dictatorship. So why didn’t anyone suggest having an election in Gaza to give the Palestinians the chance to vote for another party? Why haven’t they had an election for so long? Can someone please explain that to me.

It has been said that in the 2007 election Israel actually helped to promote Hamas. The reasons for the lack of elections are many including the problem of Palestinians in East Jerusalem voting and funding for elections. There was to be an election in 2021 and over 90% of Palestinians registered to vote, but it never happened.
One thing is certain it is nothing to do with the Palestinian people who are being used as pawns by both sides and sacrificed indiscriminately.

Palestine is not a democracy, that is why they hold no elections since Hamas took over.
I did not notice any of the Palestinian supporters crowding the streets last week calling for support to rid Palestine of Hamas. Only Israel.

eazybee

Palestine is not a democracy, that is why they hold no elections since Hamas took over.
I did not notice any of the Palestinian supporters crowding the streets last week calling for support to rid Palestine of Hamas. Only Israel.

Exactly my thoughts

Why is there a need for Hamas? Israel should ask itself that. No Israeli incursions, land grabs and restrictions - no need for anger to erupt and young men with no hope or chances to fight back.

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