Israel and Palestine (thread 3)

Aveline

Thanks Glorianny and Grany for relevant information.

Relevant yes, biased definitely

Latest figures, before tonight’s onslaught anyway…

Oreo

Thanks Glorianny but I already knew the history of concentration camps as I suspect most on GN do.
I was making a point.

I did know but only found this out recently so I think a lot of people aren’t aware of it.

GrannyGravy13

Aveline

Thanks Glorianny and Grany for relevant information.

Relevant yes, biased definitely

Biased definitely!On the side of a people who have been oppressed and driven out of their land by murder and slaughter, who are trapped in a small section of land without food, water or fuel. Who have for years been subjected to abuse and discrimination and who are now being bombed into extinction. The Israelis declared years ago that they would send Gaza back into the middle ages and as soon as any advances are made they do it again.

Someone posted that the leaders of Hamas are not even in Gaza, so why continue to bomb? Even if every member of Hamas active in Gaza is killed how will that solve the problem? The Israelis are quite aware that bombing Gaza will not destroy Hamas. It is the Palestinian people they want to go.
I'm against ethnic cleansing which is what is happening in Gaza.
I believe in human rights, I am totally biased.

Biased definitely!On the side of a people who have been oppressed and driven out of their land by murder and slaughter
I thought you were talking about the Israeli people and was surprised that you had a sudden feeling of compassion for all they have suffered over centuries.

I'm against ethnic cleansing
Surely any right-minded person is, unless they are Nazis or terrorists?

I believe in human rights, I am totally biased
Yes, we do realise that you are biased.

Anyone who believes in human rights does not feel bias, just absolute horror at what is happening to innocent people on both sides of this.

Callistemon21

^Biased definitely!On the side of a people who have been oppressed and driven out of their land by murder and slaughter^
I thought you were talking about the Israeli people and was surprised that you had a sudden feeling of compassion for all they have suffered over centuries.

I'm against ethnic cleansing
Surely any right-minded person is, unless they are Nazis or terrorists?

I believe in human rights, I am totally biased
Yes, we do realise that you are biased.

Anyone who believes in human rights does not feel bias, just absolute horror at what is happening to innocent people on both sides of this.

Of course someone who believes in human rights is biased if they see one race oppressing another.
I was biased about South Africa.
Of course ethnic cleansing is happening, displacing 1 million people is part of the process.

The deaths are terrible. But I doubt if you can post me one instance of any Israeli being denied human rights.by a Palestinian This isn't a new issue it's been going on for years and the numbers of Palestinians killed is substantially more than the number of Israelis.

Expressing horror at the slaughter of Israeli citizens is perfectly understandable, but pretending that Palestinians have not been subjected to illegal and unacceptable treatment for a long period because of those recent deaths is not.

Grany

Mayor S Khan is against leader Keir Starmer’s stance on Gaza.

Some 49 Labour MPs – almost a quarter of the 199 Labour members in parliament – have now defied the leader’s position and publicly called for a ceasefire in Gaza.

The party’s MPs have been offered security advice, as they come under pressure from their constituents over Sir Keir’s comments on the conflict.

Joining the rebels in a statement on Twitter / X, Mr Khan said: “Thousands of innocent civilians have already been killed in Israel and Gaza. With the humanitarian crisis set to deteriorate even further, I’m calling for a ceasefire.”

Why isn't KS calling for a ceasefire in this humanitarian crisis? Could it be because he and a number of his shadow cabinet are members of Friends of Israel and the Israel Lobby!?

No, I think Labour's calculation - and this applies to the Tories as well - is that the British voter gives priority to domestic matters (the NHS, cost of living, etc.) and not to foreign affairs at General Elections. Remember Labour were returned to power for the 3rd time with a substantial majority under Blair after the Iraq war even though the Left were vociferous, calling Blair a war criminal. Therefore Starmer will not change his position.

"habibi_uk" has an interesting Twitter profile and posting history! It's a classic trolling account.

Deaths (so far )since 7/10

Israel 1600
Palestine 7500

If Hamas is not in the country why are Israel still bombing over 2 million people many crowded into the south for their
‘safety ‘.
There is nowhere for them to go and no escape. It’s inhumane.
How can anyone can think otherwise, but they do

That's what I keep asking myself. What will carpet bombing Gaza achieve? Few people would disagree that what Hamas did was abhorrent or that they need to go. However, will destroying Gaza achieve that when the leaders are apparently in Qatar. All this will do is entrench hatred for even more generations. What's Israel's endgame and exit strategy? Nobody should go into a war without knowing that.

Quote from an article by Jonathan Freedland:

"This is where you wind up when you view this conflict in monochrome, as a clash of right v wrong. Because the late Israeli novelist and peace activist Amos Oz was never wiser than when he described the Israel/Palestine conflict as something infinitely more tragic: a clash of right v right. Two peoples with deep wounds, howling with grief, fated to share the same small piece of land.

So, this is not a football game. It has no need for spectators who root for one team against the other, goading their chosen side to go to ever further extremes. This is not a game, for one grimly obvious reason. There are no winners – only never-ending loss."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/27/tragedy-israel-palestine-conflict-horror

To wake up and read the newspapers today is depressing. It's all so sad. I take no sides, and I truly don't know what to say.

I don't understand why there's not more support for a ceasefire. The UK and the US abstained in the UN vote requesting an immediate ceasefire. We know that there's a huge amount of children suffering right now. Why the political silence?

“What's Israel's endgame and exit strategy? Nobody should go into a war without knowing that.”

There won’t be an exit strategy, it will end with Israeli occupation and administration of Gaza, the Palestinians were allowed to self administer Gaza and Hamas built up weapons and planned todays chaos.

Just like Germany and Japan were occupied after WW2, Gaza will also have to submit to the rule of the victor. When the population accept that Jews and Muslims can share the same land will there be peace, there will need to be compromise on both sides to achieve that.

Anything else will perpetuate the divisions and in 10 yrs time another conflict will start. Hamas can surrender tomorrow it’s their choice, they won’t because their aim is to destroy Israel, Israel will fight to stop that.

But Katie59 I fear that is precisely the unspoken endgame.

And don't forget that the occupation of Germany and Japan only lasted a very short time (apart from East Germany).

The loss of innocent civilian lives is dreadful in war and this is no exception.

Neither protagonist is listening though. The UN calls for a ceasefire with the odd exception🤔, and it was totally rejected.

So the killing of the innocents will continue.

Calling for a ceasefire is quite pointless.

Neither side will listen

Eventually there will be one but not at the moment

Louella12

Calling for a ceasefire is quite pointless.

Neither side will listen

Eventually there will be one but not at the moment

So when do you think the right time will be?

Hamas will not honour or agree to a ceasefire according to James Cleverly.

Israel has claimed the death of a Hamas Commander in Gaza.

I understand that the leaders of Hamas (the head honcho’s and money men) are in Qatar with the Operational Commanders on the ground (probably under it in the tunnels) in Gaza.

Netanyahu allowed Hamas to become stronger because it suited him. Better to have Hamas and Fatah in conflict with a weak PA. There is strong evidence he was told Hamas was planning something but he still moved 2000 IDF people from protecting the Gaza border to the West Bank to protect illegal Israeli settlers. He miscalculated and Gaza is paying the price. He didn't care about the Israelis living in Kibbutz near Gaza because many of them are not supportive of him or his nasty extreme right wing government. The more people understand about this terrible conflict the less likely they are to support what is being done to Palestinian people living in Gaza. This is not because they are Anti semitic it's because they are people who are capable of empathy. I don't support Hamas, I find their behaviour abhorrent but I do begin to understanding why they are able to recruit young Palestinian men. They use the same tactics that any terrorist or criminal group uses. They offer them "hope", a purpose, a place to grow, support. The Israeli govt has been totally complicit in allowing this to happen.

growstuff

And don't forget that the occupation of Germany and Japan only lasted a very short time (apart from East Germany).

Yes, but Gaza is part of Israel and in any case is not a self sustainable region it relies on support from elsewhere.

Cadenza123

I don't understand why there's not more support for a ceasefire. The UK and the US abstained in the UN vote requesting an immediate ceasefire. We know that there's a huge amount of children suffering right now. Why the political silence?

One suspects only the Israelis would cease fire and Hamas would simply continue to rocket Israel.

Katie59

growstuff

And don't forget that the occupation of Germany and Japan only lasted a very short time (apart from East Germany).

Yes, but Gaza is part of Israel and in any case is not a self sustainable region it relies on support from elsewhere.

Well, yes, that's the issue - Gaza is part of Israel!