Israel and Palestine (thread 3)

Civil order is starting to break down. The UN says that the level of civilian deaths is 'totally unacceptable ' yet it government is not calling for an immediate ceasefire on humanitarian grounds. Why?

Cadenza123

Civil order is starting to break down. The UN says that the level of civilian deaths is 'totally unacceptable ' yet it government is not calling for an immediate ceasefire on humanitarian grounds. Why?

The U.K. Government along with many others has called for a Humanitarian Truce not sure either side will listen.

I agree GrannyGravy, neither side will listen. I think it unlikely hostilities will end anytime soon.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/27/british-lawyers-call-on-government-to-press-for-ceasefire-in-gaza
It would seem that the government has not called for any truce

Cadenza123

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/27/british-lawyers-call-on-government-to-press-for-ceasefire-in-gaza
It would seem that the government has not called for any truce

It was reported on BBC this morning that the Government has called for a Humanitarian Truce in order to get aid into Gaza.

They also reported that Hamas will begin to release the Hostages, if Israel and other Governments release Hamas operatives from jail.

On Friday the UK abstained in a UN vote calling for an effective ceasefire. Even some Tory MPs are critical. Last week Sunak said that it was not government policy to support a ceasefire.

Cadenza123

On Friday the UK abstained in a UN vote calling for an effective ceasefire. Even some Tory MPs are critical. Last week Sunak said that it was not government policy to support a ceasefire.

Are you saying that the BBC reported erroneously?

They reported the PM and other leaders are calling for a Humanitarian Truce in order to get much needed aid into Gaza, they are also reporting that the PM has been talking with President Macron today to this end.

Cadenza123 two days is a long time in politics and war, the situation has changed since Friday, Israel has started its land incursion.

Well I doubt America are going to do that.

Problem is that Hamas would undoubtedly use any ceasefire to regroup, rearm and generally re organise in readiness for round 2. There would be no guarantee that the hostages would be released, or at best only in dribs and drabs which could be dragged out for years, exactly like the Israeli soldier who was held captive for 5 long years. Much of the much needed aid would most likely, as before,be used by Hamas to buy arms and fuel etc for themselves and not for those poor civilians, so frankly I can understand Israel's reticence. Gaza must be the only place in the world whose own government actually fails to protect its citizens or care anything about their welfare. Surely those tunnels could be used as shelters as was the underground during WW2? Why no air raid sirens to warn people of a impending raid, facilities and guidance to help the population at this awful time, not hide away in Qatar leaving people to cope on their own which is both cowardly and heartless. Israel does, why don't Hamas? Was it Golda Meir who said, ' There will only be peace when our enemies love their people more than they hate us '. This would sadly appear to be true.

The information coming out of Gaza is so transparently horrifying that no amount of narrative spin can make it look acceptable. The fact that the US and its allies are helping Israel murder children by the thousands is not acceptable however much you try to blame Hamas

On the basis that the UK government is not calling for a ceasefire, then that's obviously incorrect.

Rockets being fired into Israel for the past 17 years hasn't been acceptable either, but of course, in the way of things thats totally unimportant, as are the other persecuted Muslims in other far away countries, one in particular. The bombing of Yemen and Syria, there are children there too, doesn't raise an eyebrow, but when it's Israel defending itself against a terrorist organisation whose avowed end game is to destroy Israel and every Jew on this planet, that of course is unacceptable. Anti semitism? Surely not!!

Cadenza123

On the basis that the UK government is not calling for a ceasefire, then that's obviously incorrect.

The PM is calling for a Humanitarian Truce in certain areas of Gaza in order to get aid to those who need it most, this is different from a ceasefire,

A ceasefire would cover both Israeli and Hamas forces, Hamas are unlikely to comply according to James Cleverly.

Well if Hamas will agree then that sounds a feasible plan. It would have to be carefully monitored though, to make sure that the aid went to civilians and not fighters.

Jaberwok

Problem is that Hamas would undoubtedly use any ceasefire to regroup, rearm and generally re organise in readiness for round 2. There would be no guarantee that the hostages would be released, or at best only in dribs and drabs which could be dragged out for years, exactly like the Israeli soldier who was held captive for 5 long years. Much of the much needed aid would most likely, as before,be used by Hamas to buy arms and fuel etc for themselves and not for those poor civilians, so frankly I can understand Israel's reticence. Gaza must be the only place in the world whose own government actually fails to protect its citizens or care anything about their welfare. Surely those tunnels could be used as shelters as was the underground during WW2? Why no air raid sirens to warn people of a impending raid, facilities and guidance to help the population at this awful time, not hide away in Qatar leaving people to cope on their own which is both cowardly and heartless. Israel does, why don't Hamas? Was it Golda Meir who said, ' There will only be peace when our enemies love their people more than they hate us '. This would sadly appear to be true.

Do you really not understand Jabberwok Gaza is one of the most highly populated areas in the world? Over 2 million people occupy about 140 square miles. But Israel ordered Palestinians to leave the North displacing around 1 million people. So now 2 million people are in what is a very small area
There simply couldn't be enough tunnels or shelters to hold the population.
Israel is not trying to destroy Hamas. It is trying to remove the Palestinian population out to Egypt.
Details about Gaza www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20415675

Jaberwok

Rockets being fired into Israel for the past 17 years hasn't been acceptable either, but of course, in the way of things thats totally unimportant, as are the other persecuted Muslims in other far away countries, one in particular. The bombing of Yemen and Syria, there are children there too, doesn't raise an eyebrow, but when it's Israel defending itself against a terrorist organisation whose avowed end game is to destroy Israel and every Jew on this planet, that of course is unacceptable. Anti semitism? Surely not!!

Many of us have been protesting about Saudi and Yemen for years. We have lobbied the UK government to stop BAE systems providing the Saudis with equipment and training. Just because you have just found out about them doesn't mean the rest of us have been inactive.
But I'm pleased you are interested. You can e-mail your MP about the trade here caat.org.uk/homepage/stop-arming-saudi-arabia/uk-arms-to-saudi-arabia/

Jaberwock - no amount of deflection and whataboutery can defend the Israeli government. And criticism of the absolute slaughter of Palestians is not antisemitic

Pause. www.politico.eu/article/rishi-sunak-united-kingdom-israel-hamas-war-ceasefire-specific-pauses/
Sunak has only called for a pause. If the government wanted a ceasefire they would have voted for the UN resolution.

Cadenza123

Pause. www.politico.eu/article/rishi-sunak-united-kingdom-israel-hamas-war-ceasefire-specific-pauses/
Sunak has only called for a pause. If the government wanted a ceasefire they would have voted for the UN resolution.

That is what I have been posting 🤦‍♀️

Hardly. A half hearted request for a pause is not a call for a ceasefire. The government clearly did not support the UN request.🙄🙄🙄.

I haven’t once said the PM has called for a ceasefire.

I have repeatedly posted they have asked for a Humanitarian Truce in order to get aid to those in need!

There was a news report early today that showed Khan Younis the main city in Southern Gaza that showed calm and residents strolling around as if nothing was happening.
I suggest a lot of the suffering we are hearing about is propaganda exaggerated, another example was the failed Hamas rocket that landed in a hospital car park, the news coverage showed little damage and no doubt the 500casualties was grossly exaggerated that aside Hamas are still firing rockets from the south of Gaza.

Don’t believe what Hamas tell you it’s not independant.

I agree Katy59 and there are cars driving around, so still fuel there too.
Why anyone believes hamas propaganda beats me.They will say anything to get world sympathy on their side.

Hamas have a well oiled publicity campaign.

Yes there are deaths, there is also a video doing the rounds of bodies in shrouds, unfortunately some of the bodies are moving.

The one thing that can definitely be said on this war is believe nothing, check everything.