Starmer’s Dilemma Over Palestinian Situation

Iam64 sorry you feel picked on but just meant to say that the question of morality and hostages is eclipsed by the scale of deaths happening now and likely to continue. A relentless attack initiated by Hamas - can’t see how it helps to invoke WW2?

ronib

Iam64 notions of right and wrong don’t save lives in war.

That’s not true. Have you ever visited Colditz?

Casdon please explain.

There is humanity in war ronib, as there is in other dire circumstances. Making blanket statements as you did when you said ‘notions of right or wrong don’t save lives in war’ isn’t true. The treatment of prisoners of war determines whether they live or die. Colditz is one example of mutual respect between captors and prisoners, making the life of the hostages a lot better than it could have been, and saving their lives rather than making them suffer.

Casdon I can’t comment on your statement on Colditz as I don’t know what, if any, humanity was shown to prisoners of war. All I know is that a huge number died.
What I am seeing is that right and wrong seems to have been suspended in the build up to war and in its conduct. Presumably both sides of any given conflict both believe in the reasons for the war?

The truth is that we won’t ever know what is right and what is wrong, because there’s no such thing, it all depends on perspective. The point I was making is that in the end it’s down to the actions of individuals. Some show humanity, some brutality. You seem to see war in a very black and white way, but I don’t believe that’s how it is at all.

Colditz apparently followed the Geneva Convention during WW2, although it is said that right at the end of the war, some of the prominent prisoners came within a hair’s breadth of being executed. Whatever, the Germans did not accord the standards of the Geneva Convention to any of their prisoners in the 44000 concentration camps or incarceration sites. Some such as Treblinka, Sobihor, and others were merely industrialised killing camps.

You’re right I know maddyone, the leadership by the Nazis changed at Colditz, but if you look, for another example, at Stalag Luft 3, which was under the control of the Luftwaffe rather than the army, the treatment of prisoners was far more humane than it was in other camps. It’s not a black and white situation, wars never are. We won’t know what is really happening in the current wars until many years after the event.

Casdon hadn’t thought about war before. I have a tendency to see life in a very black and white way- dead or alive. The conflicts in Gaza and Ukraine don’t encourage a middle ground vision at the moment. We can but hope for peace?

I don't like Starmer and won't be voting for him, but I hope he has the guts to stick to his guns on this matter. The resignation of Labour councillors has shown up another problem...just who is in charge of the Labour party.....the leader or their members? These people are mere councillors yet they seem to think they are in a position to make demands of the leader of the Labour party. Should I mention that they are all Muslims, or is that irrelevant?

It's relevant, Curtain twitcher. Islam is defensive because , unlike Christian doctrine, Islamic doctrine was not influenced by the scientific enlightenment. Judaism is shadowed by the superstition of Zionism.

Ceasefire now for humanity a pause is not good enough.
A member of shadow cabinet resigned wrote in letter to KS giving reasons why, was told anyone calling for a ceasefire will be sacked.

10,000 dead more dying under rubble indiscriminate bombing This is war crimes.

It is simply your opinion that "... a pause is not good enough." Grany. So far I haven't seen a single hint that you have any training in either warfare or diplomacy.

Basically, neither you, or the rest of us on here, know better than those much closer to the situation with highly trained and knowledgeable experts to advise them. It is shere arrogance to think any of us can tell them, let alone the Israelis and Palestinians, what to do.

In highly charged situations, often the best way to help those living in fear and deprivation, is to let others get on with their jobs, and simply hold our peace.

DaisyAnneReturns

It is simply your opinion that "... a pause is not good enough." Grany. So far I haven't seen a single hint that you have any training in either warfare or diplomacy.

Basically, neither you, or the rest of us on here, know better than those much closer to the situation with highly trained and knowledgeable experts to advise them. It is shere arrogance to think any of us can tell them, let alone the Israelis and Palestinians, what to do.

In highly charged situations, often the best way to help those living in fear and deprivation, is to let others get on with their jobs, and simply hold our peace.

John McDonnell MP

@johnmcdonnellMP

MP after MP expressed their demand for action from the government to secure an immediate ceasefire in Gaza. Testimony received from doctors at the Indonesian hospital in Gaza was shocking, trying to treat children with stage 4 burns & lost limbs with no fuel, water or medication.

Labour MPs are getting more than 600 emails about KS stance Gaza and are calling for a desperately needed ceasefire now.
War crimes Genocide

And so what, Grany. It would really help if you explained how your post adds to the discussion. At the moment I can't see any reason.

As far as I'm aware Mcdonnall is just another faded politician. Are you saying he has training in either warfare and/or diplomacy. I would genuinely be surprised to find he has.

Or is he yet another, along with Sunak and Starmer that you think can change what is happening just by declaring it should change.

Oh, that life was that simple.

Hamas have got fuel. They keep it so they can fire their rockets into Israel. Shame on them for denying children the fuel, water, and medicine that injured and sick children need.

Grany there is a war going on. Our government can’t bring about a ceasefire in Gaza. It’s ridiculous that anyone should think that either the government or opposition could.
Maybe the opposition would like to explain to Hamas about releasing the 200 plus hostages since they haven’t listened to anyone else. That’s a legitimate cause for Labour to take up and would prove evidence of its ability to govern - or not - depending on the outcome!

To Grany, regarding:

Sun 05-Nov-23 20:40:28
Candelle you have your opinion I have mine. Don't be taken in by Israel propaganda. Netanyahu is corrupt so are his goverment ministers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grany, I gave a pretty comprehensive post including the history of the region including the fact that the Israelis have every right to be there. It is history. You have ignored this.

I explained much of the background to this war. You have ignored this.

I explained how Palestinians work and pray in Israel but not vice versa. You have ignored this.

I explained how Gaza is not occupied by Israel. You have ignored this.

I suppose you have not made an effort to seek out the book or film, 'The Road to Babi Yar', as you make no comment of it. Please try to do so as it may explain matters to you of which you seem unaware.

I explained where the money that Hamas has collected from well-meaning Governments to improve the lot of the Palestinian people has gone. You have ignored this.

I explained that the above money has been spent on corruption and tunnels to cause murder but not used for the good of the Palestinian people. You have ignored this.

I explained how Hamas have been using the Palestinian populous as human shields, firing rockets at Israel from the centre of Gaza city. You have ignored this.

I explained how Hamas fired at their own people heading south from Gaza city. Why would they fire on their own? If the people all fled Gaza city, how could they (Hamas) have the publicity they crave? Their human pawns would be gone, no human shields. You have ignored this.

I explained how there is a Hamas command centre under the hospital. You have ignored this.

I explained that the Israelis asked/told the people to leave Gaza as they would be bombing to clear the city of all the rocket launchers and military paraphernalia. You have ignored this.

I mentioned that during WW11, we, the British people were happy to bomb cities in Germany, as the Germans bombed us. No ceasefire was requested by only one entity. You ignored this.

I explained that corrupt Hamas has not managed to provide any infrastructure for their people. The light and power come from Israel. If the Israelis had not provided it, Gaza would have been perpetually dark. You have ignored this.

I mentioned that no one in this country marched against the Governments of Syria or Yemen where millions died. Why now, for Palestine? The difference is...? You have ignored this.

In your comments, you rarely mention the deaths, pure murder and painful torture of Israelis on October 7th, let alone the hostages.

Just writing 'you have your opinion and I have mine' is untenable. You make many comments on this thread yet can't substantiate a cohesive reply to me on the above points. You just ignore them. I do not know why but perhaps it is to do with your not wanting to believe facts.

You mention Israeli propaganda. This comment actually made me smile. Hamas bumped up their propaganda machine some years ago and they have certainly done a good job if people such as yourself are unable to see how they have denied the Palestinian people a decent day-to-day life. Israeli, on the other hand, gave up its PR. They just concentrate on providing a life for their population - including the Palestinians within Israel (who work and vote there).

You do not seem to understand that Iran is pulling strings around the world. They want a bigger war. You are helping perpetuate this.

You mention Netanyahu: I believe that Netanyahu took his eye off the ball with regard to his first duty, as with any Prime Minister, that of keeping his country safe but his politics are not the point here. The murders of October 7th were a long time in the planning. I cannot comment on him being corrupt as I have no real understanding or knowledge of this. Do you?

Incidentally, I do not understand the hate directed to Israel by people such as yourself (and others here), a country who was invaded and is fighting back, fighting for its existence. Surely, it can only be anti-Semitism.

Tell me, Did a Jewish person blow up the twin towers in New York? Did a Jew blow himself and thereby kill scores of people - repeated hundreds of times around the world? Did a Jew try to blow up aircraft? I link these questions as I just do not understand the dreadful rhetoric towards the Jewish people.

Finally, do you understand (please read up on this as you probably will not believe me) that Hamas, Hezbollah and other groups we do not hear about, bring their people up to hate. Mothers bring their children up to hate. They want all Jewish people to die. Nice?

Candelle, your impassioned posts are welcome.
By the way, I’m sure yiu will be aware that some groups believe the 9/11 attacks were organised by ‘the Jews and the americans’

Thankyou, Candelle

As someone said on another, relevant thread:

People tend to believe conspiracy theories when they suit their views on a given subject

Just reading propaganda from one side gives someone a distorted and blinkered view; regurgitating it all on here does not advance the discussion one jot.

Candelle
Thank you again for your post. Every single point you make is true and valid. Grany
doesn’t want to know the truth, and nor do some others, but worse, it has been reported that some of the people (students) on the free Palestine marches have no knowledge whatsoever of what happened in Israel on 7/10. If this is true, it appears that they don’t want know, because it would be easy enough to find out. Many others prefer to ignore the truth and the history.
Thank you again for taking the time to point out the background and the truth.

Thank you Candelle

Candelle
I explained how Palestinians work and pray in Israel but not vice versa. You have ignored this
Can you explain the Amnesty report which said of the extent of Israel’s apartheid regime. Whether they live in Gaza, East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank, or Israel itself, Palestinians are treated as an inferior racial group and systematically deprived of their rights We found that Israel’s cruel policies of segregation, dispossession and exclusion across all territories under its control clearly amount to apartheid. The international community has an obligation to act

You said
Incidentally, I do not understand the hate directed to Israel by people such as yourself (and others here), a country who was invaded and is fighting back, fighting for its existence. Surely, it can only be anti-Semitism.
Are the many Jews protesting about Israel's actions anti-semitic? www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/11/7/jewish-new-yorkers-occupy-statue-of-liberty-to-demand-gaza-ceasefire#:~:text=Activists%20from%20Jewish%20Voice%20for,base%20of%20New%20York%20landmark.&text=Hundreds%20of%20US%20Jewish%20activists,in%20Gaza%20and%20a%20ceasefire.
Or the very orthodox Jews who do not believe a Jewish state should exist? www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ultra-orthodox-anti-zionis

You said
Tell me, Did a Jewish person blow up the twin towers in New York? Did a Jew blow himself and thereby kill scores of people - repeated hundreds of times around the world? Did a Jew try to blow up aircraft? I link these questions as I just do not understand the dreadful rhetoric towards the Jewish people.
No but neither did anyone from Gaza.
No one has posted anything about Jewish people. Criticism of the state of Israel is not criticism of Jews- see the links above.

You said
I explained that the Israelis asked/told the people to leave Gaza as they would be bombing to clear the city of all the rocket launchers and military paraphernalia. You have ignored this
Do you understand what ethnic cleansing is? Here's a definition
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. Along with direct removal, extermination, deportation or population transfer, it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.[3][4][5] It constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the Genocide Convention, even though ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law
Forcing Palestinians to leave is ethnic cleansing.

Truth is something which is sadly lacking in your post.

Candelle

To Grany, regarding:

Sun 05-Nov-23 20:40:28
Candelle you have your opinion I have mine. Don't be taken in by Israel propaganda. Netanyahu is corrupt so are his goverment ministers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grany, I gave a pretty comprehensive post including the history of the region including the fact that the Israelis have every right to be there. It is history. You have ignored this.

I explained much of the background to this war. You have ignored this.

I explained how Palestinians work and pray in Israel but not vice versa. You have ignored this.

I explained how Gaza is not occupied by Israel. You have ignored this.

I suppose you have not made an effort to seek out the book or film, 'The Road to Babi Yar', as you make no comment of it. Please try to do so as it may explain matters to you of which you seem unaware.

I explained where the money that Hamas has collected from well-meaning Governments to improve the lot of the Palestinian people has gone. You have ignored this.

I explained that the above money has been spent on corruption and tunnels to cause murder but not used for the good of the Palestinian people. You have ignored this.

I explained how Hamas have been using the Palestinian populous as human shields, firing rockets at Israel from the centre of Gaza city. You have ignored this.

I explained how Hamas fired at their own people heading south from Gaza city. Why would they fire on their own? If the people all fled Gaza city, how could they (Hamas) have the publicity they crave? Their human pawns would be gone, no human shields. You have ignored this.

I explained how there is a Hamas command centre under the hospital. You have ignored this.

I explained that the Israelis asked/told the people to leave Gaza as they would be bombing to clear the city of all the rocket launchers and military paraphernalia. You have ignored this.

I mentioned that during WW11, we, the British people were happy to bomb cities in Germany, as the Germans bombed us. No ceasefire was requested by only one entity. You ignored this.

I explained that corrupt Hamas has not managed to provide any infrastructure for their people. The light and power come from Israel. If the Israelis had not provided it, Gaza would have been perpetually dark. You have ignored this.

I mentioned that no one in this country marched against the Governments of Syria or Yemen where millions died. Why now, for Palestine? The difference is...? You have ignored this.

In your comments, you rarely mention the deaths, pure murder and painful torture of Israelis on October 7th, let alone the hostages.

Just writing 'you have your opinion and I have mine' is untenable. You make many comments on this thread yet can't substantiate a cohesive reply to me on the above points. You just ignore them. I do not know why but perhaps it is to do with your not wanting to believe facts.

You mention Israeli propaganda. This comment actually made me smile. Hamas bumped up their propaganda machine some years ago and they have certainly done a good job if people such as yourself are unable to see how they have denied the Palestinian people a decent day-to-day life. Israeli, on the other hand, gave up its PR. They just concentrate on providing a life for their population - including the Palestinians within Israel (who work and vote there).

You do not seem to understand that Iran is pulling strings around the world. They want a bigger war. You are helping perpetuate this.

You mention Netanyahu: I believe that Netanyahu took his eye off the ball with regard to his first duty, as with any Prime Minister, that of keeping his country safe but his politics are not the point here. The murders of October 7th were a long time in the planning. I cannot comment on him being corrupt as I have no real understanding or knowledge of this. Do you?

Incidentally, I do not understand the hate directed to Israel by people such as yourself (and others here), a country who was invaded and is fighting back, fighting for its existence. Surely, it can only be anti-Semitism.

Tell me, Did a Jewish person blow up the twin towers in New York? Did a Jew blow himself and thereby kill scores of people - repeated hundreds of times around the world? Did a Jew try to blow up aircraft? I link these questions as I just do not understand the dreadful rhetoric towards the Jewish people.

Finally, do you understand (please read up on this as you probably will not believe me) that Hamas, Hezbollah and other groups we do not hear about, bring their people up to hate. Mothers bring their children up to hate. They want all Jewish people to die. Nice?

JewishVoiceForLabour
@JVoiceLabour
·
5h
Not Hamas nor antisemitism is greatest threat to the Jewish people. It is Israel’s war itself When Israel’s leaders commit acts of unconscionable violence in the name of Jewish people, they turn our religion and culture into something merciless and mean

Howard Beckett

@BeckettUnite
·
11h
The south of Gaza destroyed last night by Israeli air strikes. These are the areas people have been told to evacuate to. There are no safe zones in Gaza, only killing fields. The Hague has no legitimacy if it fails to step in.

All this didn’t start on 7th October The Jewish people were given land that Palestine’s had lived on for hundreds of years about 10% of Jews living there in peace too. In early 1900s Jews were promised land. The first Nakba was in 1948 when hundreds of thousands were driven from their land and killed. It was fine thing to give land to the Jewish people but the promise to protect Palestinian rights never came to be, never materialised never happened.

Hamas were not there 30 years ago, you figure out how Hamas came to be.

Also there is proof from Israel that the Israeli pilots killed their own citizens on 7th with heavy aircraft fire, as they didn’t recognise who was who. And the 40 babies beheaded story believed to be in doubt also, as propaganda for the genocide now taking place.

This is about the corruption of Netanyahu and his ministers.
By
Andrew Feinstein

You can read the rest here.
www.redpepper.org.uk/global-politics/palestine-middle-east/einsteins-nightmare-the-fascist-politicians-wielding-power-in-israel/
Netanyahu’s corruption is evident not only in the well-documented cases of receiving excessive gifts and benefits and ‘buying’ favourable media coverage, but also in massive arms deals involving bribes on a far larger scale.

The Prime Minister’s anti-democratic assault on Israel’s judicial system, thus, serves two purposes: to free up his government to behave as they please in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPTs) and to ensure that he never faces prosecution for his political and personal malfeasance.

Netanyahu’s sixth and current government is a coalition comprising the most extreme political actors from the right in Israel’s controversial history. Proudly fascist, the coalition comprises openly racist Islamophobes who were historically marginal in Israeli politics, but who are now driving policy in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPTs).

Fascists in power

Netanyahu’s government includes Bezalel Smotrich as both Finance Minister and, strangely, Minister in the Defence Ministry. In the latter role, he has authority over ‘civilian issues in the West Bank’ including over the allocation of land and the planning and construction of illegal settlements.

Smotrich himself lives on an illegal settlement, and believes that the OPTs are part of Israel – a position which, in his appalling world-view, Palestinians must accept and therefore must ‘choose’ between a life of subjugation under Israeli rule, voluntary emigration or death. A notorious racist who proudly describes himself as a ‘fascist homophobe’, Smotrich is an ultra-nationalist who denies the existence of Palestinian as a nation or people.

National Security Minister, Ben-Gvir is emblematic of the extreme nature of the government. In 2007, he was convicted in Israel for inciting racism and supporting a terrorist organisation – in any functioning democracy in which the rule of law held sway, Ben-Gvir would be in jail rather than serving as one of his country’s most powerful Ministers.

Redoubling resistance

The Israeli government of Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir is the most right wing, racist and genocidalist in the country’s history. It has abandoned any pretence of meaningful, accountable democracy, even for its privileged Jewish citizens.

It has created a political conjuncture in which Israel has a serious Jewish supremacy problem, much like apartheid South Africa’s white supremacist mind-set.

In its reaction to Hamas’ violent actions inside Israel, this government is very comfortable committing genocide. The unqualified and uncritical support this fascist, criminal government has received from British political leaders, both Tory and Labour, will ensure that this genocide continues until Israel has achieved its deadly, illegal objectives.

As a consequence, it is essential that we redouble our calls for a ceasefire now; demand an immediate arms embargo; organise a comprehensive, global Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions campaign against Israel; and insist that the International Criminal Court bring charges against all those complicit in the war crimes committed in Gaza and the OPTs.

You tell me to read a book about the Jewish people It is well documented what the Jews people have been through the holocaust

Have you read how for more than 75 years Palestinians have no rights their land taken away 70% still remain refugees and can’t go back to their land that their families were driven from.

I can’t answer any more questions
This is what I know.

More copy and paste.