Starmer’s Dilemma Over Palestinian Situation

DaisyAnneReturns

Glorianny

Actually Israel does need us. We supply some of the necessary components for the aircraft you see dropping bombs on Gaza.
There has been a request that all arms sales to Israel should be stopped. It hasn't happened. When Turkey bombed Syria the sale of arms to them was suspended.
Providing arms to Israel is breaking the government guidelines that we should not provide weapons which are used to violate humanitarian law.
www.opendemocracy.net/en/israel-palestine-hamas-war-arms-exports-uk-government/

Actually Israel does need us. We supply some of the necessary components for the aircraft you see dropping bombs on Gaza.

Who are we in this instance Glorianny? Not the government. Stopping companies selling to Israel will make no difference at this point. They have what they need.

Don't you want the problems resolved Glorianny? You seem more intent on attacking Starmer than allowing a solution to be found.

The government grants export licences to companies who supply arms so are complicit in the bombing of Gaza. Israel only continues to use its weapons because they know that they will be supplied with more. A ceasefire is more likely to happen if the supply is stopped.
Trade unionists are calling on workers to stop handling weapons that are intended for Israel.
tribunemag.co.uk/2023/10/organising-against-apartheid-why-union-solidarity-with-palestine-matters

Glorianny perhaps these trade unionists could have a quick word with whoever is supplying arms to Hamas…

Starmer is a weak leader with little of the gravitas and seriousness of purpose this country needs. It’ll be good to get rid of the tories, but who knows what a feeble minded Labour government will do in office. Nothing bold or radical.

BREAKING: Thousands of people are staging a sit-in at London Liverpool Street to demand a ceasefire in Gaza and an end to the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

Protests for a ceasefire happening

People do not like that KS did not call for a ceasefire he went quickly out the back door Chatham House

He look

He looks like PM in waiting to me.

Grany

Starmer is a weak leader with little of the gravitas and seriousness of purpose this country needs. It’ll be good to get rid of the tories, but who knows what a feeble minded Labour government will do in office. Nothing bold or radical.

BREAKING: Thousands of people are staging a sit-in at London Liverpool Street to demand a ceasefire in Gaza and an end to the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

Protests for a ceasefire happening

People do not like that KS did not call for a ceasefire he went quickly out the back door Chatham House

One thing we can confidently say is that Starmer is not a weak leader. You don’t like what he says Grany, that’s what you actually mean. The protests of the left I think have the opposite effect to what you intend, because your dislike of him makes others realise what a good job he is doing.

Not only does Grany not like what he says but she obviously has access to far more information on what is happening than he does, so can make infinitely better decisions (apparently)
than he can.

I'm afraid I have seen too much of the extreme left and their plans for the Labour Party and it is making me reconsider whether I would support a Labour government into power. Certainly, if Starmer goes I can imagine the parties popularity plummeting and it being unable to win.

Just my opinion, of course. Oh, for some sane democracy.

Starmer realises that when in government he will have to make difficult choices. In opposition those choices are largely hypothetical and in some cases mere posturing by those who don't have to make real decisions. He is wise to hold his ground and ignore street politics.

The events leading on since Hamas terrorists/gunmen launched an unprecedented assault on Israel from the Gaza Strip on 7 October, killing more than 1,400 people and taking at least 239 hostages is beyond horrific. We can't imagine the suffering all concerned are going through. Hell on earth, God must wonder why he bothered.

greenlady102.

“I think "please acknowledge" is an odd thing to say”

I wrote that because it is from Conservative Home and I thought it was reasonably even handed in its sentiments. There is no doubt in my mind that Sir Keir knows that there is a need to crush any degree of Anti Semitism in the party. It may be just a few members but he is showing he stands firm against any hint of Anti Semitism.

Quite so GSM, in truth there is very little anybody here can do to influence Israel, Hamas, or Iran (and the latter certainly does NOT care about Palestinians, they're just a useful, expendable resource).

Iran is detested round the whole of the Middle East, and the hordes of protesters here have been strangely absent from protests about the Iran-sponsored Yemeni conflict (far more casualties than in this one) or the ISIL genocides in Iraq and Syria, killed tens of thousands of Muslims, and attacked the harmless Yazidis, a faith that far predates Islam.

Oh, and Russia's backing of the maniac Assad, so far between 300 and 500,000 innocent civilians killed (mostly Muslims!), how odd, not a single protester, nor a Lab councillor doing any virtue signalling?!

With strong USA support, and even Russia snuggling up to them in recent years, Israel can shrug off most criticism, especially as everyone hates Iran. At some point, they'll need to live together again, as Arabs and Jews have done in that area for, what, 3,000 years? But if anyone has a plan for that, send it to all the players?

For Grany -- do consider rather better before writing that biased guff. You're in Momentum perhaps, or someone longing for Comrade Corbyn (& no I'm not a Tory) - and a big fan of his 4+ years of doing nothing re the party's internal anti-Semitism issues? Well, Starmer may not be a great Leader - but we've had few (any badge) that were. And he is certainly more electable than Jezza.

And as I commented already, HOW ODD that the hordes of protesters here have been strangely absent from protests about the Iran-sponsored Yemeni conflict (far more casualties than in this one) or the ISIL genocides in Iraq and Syria, killed tens of thousands of Muslims, and attacked the harmless Yazidis, a faith that far predates Islam.

Oh, and Russia's backing of the maniac Assad, so far between 300 and 500,000 innocent civilians killed (mostly Muslims!), how odd, not a single protester, nor a Lab councillor doing any virtue signalling?!

Nobody in Israel, Hamas nor Iran is remotely interested in your opinion, nor protests here. Given Israel has the support of USA and Russia, and the entire middle-east detests Iran, just WHAT is your practical plan for the area for the next era, say to 2050?

Good points Dr Watson

Anniel

greenlady102.

“I think "please acknowledge" is an odd thing to say”

I wrote that because it is from Conservative Home and I thought it was reasonably even handed in its sentiments. There is no doubt in my mind that Sir Keir knows that there is a need to crush any degree of Anti Semitism in the party. It may be just a few members but he is showing he stands firm against any hint of Anti Semitism.

Sir Keir Starmer is throwing out of the Labour party Jewish People, Jews who express support for the plight of the Palestinians under illegal occupation that he calls is antisemitism. Read the book by Asa Winstanly Weaponising Antisemitism

If all social classes of Americans , Israelis, and Europeans were thoroughly educated in the scientific Enlightenment tradition then , in the scientifically =enlightened world, the numbers of Hamas and other dictators would be insignificant.

This because fanatical religion and nationalism (including Zionists and dictators such as Putin )pertain only to unenlightened individuals. Islam never experienced a scientific enlightenment.

It's factually true that Starmer is a member of Labour Friends of Israel, and is easily verifiable that he (along with several members of his shadow cabinet) has received large amounts of funding from pro-Israeli government sources. He is almost certain to become the next prime minister of the UK, and it is disturbing that he's not prepared to call for an end to the bombing of Gaza. The Israeli government, under the pretext of destroying Hamas, has massacred around 9000 innocent civilians, and has created the conditions for a hundredfold resurgence of Hamas. The legitimate grievances of a people who have been dispossessed of their land and driven into a highly surveilled enclave, with water and electricity cut off periodically at the whim of the Israelis (long before the horrific events of October 7) have not been listened to. Our government, like the US, prefers to ignore UN resolutions and go on selling arms to Israel. In the absence of any peaceful way forward (like a single state where everyone has democratic rights, two separate states or a federation), a terrorist movement has arisen. It will only be strengthened by the continued unspeakable cruelty being visited on Gaza.

Ok I'm Jewish. I was actually a student in 1967 and volunteered in the 6 days war. Flew out in the first volunteer flight on day 7. Most of us manned the kibutzim while their members went to the army.

But far from being anti Arab, I had met a Moslem Syrian in the UK before that and we married in 1969. We have 2 daughters and 3 grandchildren. If you have a Jewish mother you are Jewish so all grandkids are.

I think this article pretty much sums it up. From the river to the sea means kill all the Jews in Israel

blogs.timesofisrael.com/dear-world-i-dont-care/?fbclid=IwAR1EXGQlFDyL-oG4OSSsv2bcqrUX-gtbtq9GCU0Pud1WNjn35Gaf8QrA3IA

I think the point about Starmer is that he has few real or deeply held convictions, he is swayed by whatever he imagines is the current populist opinion. So all those criticising people who question him, and making reference to Jeremy Corbyn, should remember that he once was a supporter of Corbyn, that he promised to be a leader who united the party, and that he is now, apparently, a supporter of a far right government which practises apartheid. We've had one PM whose only motivation was personal power, for goodness sake let's not have another one.
Starmer's stance on this conflict is irreconcilable with Labour beliefs. Labour have always supported the oppressed and opposed wars. Having a leader who refuses to condemn apartheid would once have been thought impossible.

Australian Jewish groups vigils for peace

They gathered in coats and scarves in the dwindling light on a little hill in Bondi, a coalition of 100 or so, accompanied by dogs and children.

The decision to gather in public on Wednesday night was a deliberate one to highlight the first Jewish grouping in Australia to call for a ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas war, the release of hostages and freedom and justice for all in Israel and Palestine. A similar gathering in St Kilda, Melbourne echoed the call for peace.

Eve Altman, one of the people who organised the gathering in Sydney, said the idea for a vigil had spurred from grassroots conversations with friends in the Jewish community.

Ceasefire

Hamas ceased power in Gasa in 2007 killing all the El Fatah Council. Hamas Banned Elections and any opposition dies. Hamas as De-Facto Government of Gasa hjave declared War on Israel and Israel are defending themselves in a War Situation. That is heri legal right.
Starmes problem is the Communistsa in his party that were brought in when Unite took the party over. They are Anti-Semitic and will only ever hutrt Labours chance of wining seats.

Trurider1

Hamas ceased power in Gasa in 2007 killing all the El Fatah Council. Hamas Banned Elections and any opposition dies. Hamas as De-Facto Government of Gasa hjave declared War on Israel and Israel are defending themselves in a War Situation. That is heri legal right.
Starmes problem is the Communistsa in his party that were brought in when Unite took the party over. They are Anti-Semitic and will only ever hutrt Labours chance of wining seats.

Wow so many inaccuracies in one post.
Firstly elections were due to take place in 2021 over 90% of Palestinians registered to vote. It didn't happen partly because of the problems with Palestinians in East Jerusalem voting. The Palestinian people have no right to vote in Israel or Palestine.
Israel is breaking International Law.
I've never been a communist, but I know Jewish people who are. Are they anti-semitic?

Luckygirl3

No-one wants to see innocent Israelis slaughtered; no-one wants to see innocent Palestinians slaughtered. What is the answer? I wish I knew. It is so very sad.

Those who started this latest debacle hide behind innocent civilians.

Yes Hamas is responsible for what is happening, this misery, no one else. What was their aim in attacking Israel? Did they really think Israel wouldn't retaliate? They wanted them to retaliate. Hamas knew that innocent civilians would be killed and injured but they don't care. They hide within civilian homes and hospitals. How do you fight Hamas - they dont wear uniforms for a reason.

I've just watched Phil Moorhouse's video and think he is probably right.

There is no way in which Hamas can defeat Israel. What they did on 7 October was deplorable and outrageous and they should be called to account for it, if at all possible. I doubt that will happen because Israel will kill them all, even if they have to flatten the whole of Gaza in the process.

So what is to happen? The UN need to ensure that other countries in the Middle East do not get involved in order to prevent this conflict from spreading. The UN and America in particular need to hold Israel to account for the illegal occupation of the Palestinian lands. I watched a news item within the last week of young Israeli men who lived in an area in a mountainous desert region, only recently occupied, with encouragement from Netanyahu. They were brandishing an array of weapons and hoped that they would be able to use them.

And then there is the problem of the refugees.

Dinahmo as from tomorrow Iran is Chair of the Human Rights Commission part of the UN.

Do you really think they will be able to do anything worthwhile?

GrannyGravy13

Dinahmo as from tomorrow Iran is Chair of the Human Rights Commission part of the UN.

Do you really think they will be able to do anything worthwhile?

I only found this out when reading the other thread. So no, I don't they will be able to. In my worst moments I can see us heading for another World War.