Starmer’s Dilemma Over Palestinian Situation

maddyone

Maybe Callistemon but I doubt it.
Didn’t the chief rabbi, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the chief cleric of Islam all offer a united press conference calling for peace when it all started? I saw them on the news.

Yes, I posted a photo on one thread.

Unless leaders on both sides agree to a ceasefire, it isn't going to happen despite what anyone in the rest of the world says. They seem intent on annihilating each other.
☹

Grany

NEW: An Israeli government minister has said that dropping a nuclear bomb on the entirety of Gaza is an option. 2.4 million people live in Gaza.

In 1948 Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt and others warned about a fascistic strand in Zionism, then on the margins of Israeli politics. That strand, as Andrew Feinstein recounts here, is no longer on the margins. It is embedded in Netanhyahu’s government.
www.redpepper.org.uk/global-politics/palestine-middle-east/einsteins-nightmare-the-fascist-politicians-wielding-power-in-israel/

13 of 31 members of Labour’s shadow cabinet have received donations from a pro-Israel lobby group or individual funder, including Keir Starmer, Angela Rayner, David Lammy and Rachel Reeves. 👉Two-fifths of Starmer’s cabinet funded by pro-Israel lobbyists

www.declassifieduk.org/two-fifths-of-keir-starmers-cabinet-have-been-funded-by-pro-israel-lobbyists/

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH”

George Orwell’s 1984 was a work of fiction. Sadly, our political parties think it’s an instruction manual.

Sir Keir Starmer defended his position on the Israel/Hamas conflict, saying a ceasefire in Gaza could risk further violence. Really? Israeli war planes must drop more bombs in civilian areas or else civilians could get hurt? To think he used to brief the media to describe him as “forensic”.

Jamie Driscoll

jamiedriscoll.co.uk/news/war-is-peace/

Labour’s response to the crisis in Gaza is a test of whether it’s fit to govern
John McDonnell
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/03/labour-gaza-keir-starmer-israel

Just for one moment imagine if this was Russian soldiers brutally assaulting a 12 year old girl on the streets of Kyiv. But it’s not, it’s Israeli occupation thugs and it happened in Jerusalem, so you only get to find out about it on social media.

x.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1721114987253371014?s=20

Amnesty, Save The Children, Oxfam, Doctors Without Borders, a vast majority of the UN, the Spanish and Irish governments, 76% of the British public want a ceasefire.

Behind the times Grany the minister who said this has been sacked.

Did anyone read the link I posted by Andrew Feinstein?
Israel is led by the corrupt Netanyahu the fascists in his government who don't want Palistinians in Gaza. What hope is there for peace, governments continue to support and arm Israel

Grany

Did anyone read the link I posted by Andrew Feinstein?
Israel is led by the corrupt Netanyahu the fascists in his government who don't want Palistinians in Gaza. What hope is there for peace, governments continue to support and arm Israel

As you are intent to play post ping pong

Have you not read/seen the statements of Hamas leaders avowing that they will not cease until every Jew is wiped out in not only Israel but the world!

Thank you Grany for the many links you have included in your post. I have read them all and find the long history behind this war illuminating. I hope other Grans can, with an open mind read them too.

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Save the Children have a petition to Rishi Sunak asking him to ask for a ceasefire and protect all the children . Over 100,000 have signed already.
action.savethechildren.org.uk/page/137213/-/1

Save The Children is an international organisation, why would they approach Rishi Sunak? 🤔

Approach the UN.

We and the US are the main suppliers of arms to Israel. Perhaps it doesn't bother you that we are enabling Israel to kill Palestinian children. But it does me. And if Rishi Sunak was to ask for a ceasefire and to back that with a proviso that he would not grant export licences to any arms manufacturer supplying Israel we might get something done.
The idea that we are without influence is nonsensical

You seem intent on getting Israel to ceasefire

What about Hamas, and of course Hezbollah?

A ceasefire is a mutual pact to stop any acts of aggression over a set period of time.

I can only assume that you haven’t seen/read any of the statements coming from Hamas?

If the U.K. were to unilaterally stop supplying weaponry to Israel it will not make the slightest difference to the situation. The USA will continue to back Israel and no doubt other suppliers would step in to fill the void left by U.K.

The components are hi-tech stuff. It would take time to find another supplier and to ensure compatibility.
In any case isn't there such a thing as a moral stance?
I'm not happy that my country is complicit in the bombing of civilians.
If it is OK could someone tell me how many Palestinian deaths they think are acceptable in order to kill every Hamas member? (Which is impossible for lots of them are not even in Gaza)

And that is the point Glorianny. Not all Hamas are in Gaza. Hamas is driven and supported by external forces. Not all the people who live in Gaza should be there either. It has been deliberately over populated. There has been stealth population increase, way above the worldwide averages since the 1960s. I posted the figures above. You have an ability not to see the situation from any other perspective than civilian deaths, , but many of us find it impossible to do that.

Casdon

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Save the Children have a petition to Rishi Sunak asking him to ask for a ceasefire and protect all the children . Over 100,000 have signed already.
action.savethechildren.org.uk/page/137213/-/1

Save The Children is an international organisation, why would they approach Rishi Sunak? 🤔

Approach the UN.

We and the US are the main suppliers of arms to Israel. Perhaps it doesn't bother you that we are enabling Israel to kill Palestinian children. But it does me. And if Rishi Sunak was to ask for a ceasefire and to back that with a proviso that he would not grant export licences to any arms manufacturer supplying Israel we might get something done.
The idea that we are without influence is nonsensical

You seem intent on getting Israel to ceasefire

What about Hamas, and of course Hezbollah?

A ceasefire is a mutual pact to stop any acts of aggression over a set period of time.

I can only assume that you haven’t seen/read any of the statements coming from Hamas?

If the U.K. were to unilaterally stop supplying weaponry to Israel it will not make the slightest difference to the situation. The USA will continue to back Israel and no doubt other suppliers would step in to fill the void left by U.K.

The components are hi-tech stuff. It would take time to find another supplier and to ensure compatibility.
In any case isn't there such a thing as a moral stance?
I'm not happy that my country is complicit in the bombing of civilians.
If it is OK could someone tell me how many Palestinian deaths they think are acceptable in order to kill every Hamas member? (Which is impossible for lots of them are not even in Gaza)

And that is the point Glorianny. Not all Hamas are in Gaza. Hamas is driven and supported by external forces. Not all the people who live in Gaza should be there either. It has been deliberately over populated. There has been stealth population increase, way above the worldwide averages since the 1960s. I posted the figures above. You have an ability not to see the situation from any other perspective than civilian deaths, , but many of us find it impossible to do that.

Sorry then Casdon with my "ability not to see the situation from any other perspective than civilian deaths" I really don't understand what the point of bombing Gaza is. If every Palestinian in Gaza were killed Hamas would still exist. So Israel's idea that it can wipe out Hamas by destroying Gaza is an unachievable aim. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
If it is that actually Israel really doesn't care about Palestinian deaths I would entirely agree.
As for the "not all the people who live in Gaza should be there" What are you implying? That there has been an immigration by Hamas? Really the population growth is simple. Look at the figures 65% of he population is under 24, the median age is 18.
And the population growth rate isn't excessive.
It's 39th on the CIA world list www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/population-growth-rate/country-comparison

Gloriany like Grany you haven’t offered an opinion on Hamas’s oft repeated intentions of eliminating all Jews from Israel and the world.

To Grany:

I am pleased that Keir Starmer has the grit to stand up to (religious) bullies within his party, He seems a man of integrity and perhaps he understands the reality of some of the following which much of the population does not.

Jews are indigenous to the area of conflict. They ruled Judean kingdoms and prayed in Judean temples for a thousand years and were then present in smaller numbers for the next 2,000 years.

If you really believe in the return of exiled people to their homeland, the return of Jews is exactly that.

Migrants to Britain are regarded as British within a generation or two and no one would describe them as 'settlers', yet Israeli families resident in Israel for a century are regarded as 'settler colonists', ripe for murder and mutilation.

There is much more history of the region which is complex but please do understand that Israel is a democratic state and has every right to exist.

Incidentally, Israel allows Palestinians to work and pray in Israel, a right not accorded to an Israeli in Palestine.
If a Palestinian is really sick, they are taken to and treated in an Israeli hospital. This is not a one-off but a daily occurrence. Was.

Incidentally, Gaza is not technically occupied by Israel as they evacuated the strip (won in a war that again, Israel did not begin). In 2006/7, Hamas seized power, killing its Fatah rivals in a short civil war. Hamas crushed any opposition.
Gaza is not a concentration camp and you obviously have little knowledge of what a concentration camp is. People are tortured, worked to death, starved and murdered in huge numbers in a concentration camp. May I recommend a book for you? It is titled ‘The Road to Babi Yar’ (also a 2018 film). That will show you what happens when a murderous state decides on a policy of annihilation and your use of these words is a stain on you. Read that book and then use the words ‘concentration camp’ in relation to Gaza – that will be impossible.

The Palestinians also require a safe Palestinian state but not one governed by Hamas, a murdering entity. They deserve a Government that puts their needs first without corruption and actually governs and provides services. Much of the money given to Gaza and supposed to buy concrete for building homes and infrastructure went into building tunnels to be used to send armed men into Israel to kill unarmed families.

The current situation has been brought about by Iran who once again is stirring up trouble for their own ends. There was the chance of accord in the region and Saudi Arabia and others were negotiating to bring about a lasting peace which is exactly why Iran fired up Hamas, their pawns.

Hamas, a corrupt and inept body, have no regard for the Palestinian people. The roads south out of Gza City were blocked and the people fired upon – by Hamas, who saw their human shield disappearing. Hamas situate their rockets (still daily being fired on to Israeli cities – there’s not much in the media about this) in urban areas knowing full well that their people are human shields but they do not care.

The news of the bombing of a hospital came from? Hamas. The Israelis said that they did not bomb the hospital and were not believed. It was later learnt through surveillance cameras that it was a Hamas own rocket that malfunctioned and landed in the hospital car park. These rockets are daily being fired at Israel.

Hamas builds command centres underneath hospitals which is a direct contravention of the Geneva Convention. There is one under Gaza City’s Dar al-Shifa hospital. This needs to be destroyed.

Imagine if this was happening in the UK. During WW11, Germany dropped bombs on.... urban areas and no warning was given suggesting people move away from the areas to be targeted. The UK did likewise to Germany (but I understand that we did sometimes drop leaflets warning of our forthcoming attack). Was anyone marching demanding that the UK should not bomb Germany despite their attacking us? No.

Please do not believe all the rhetoric coming from Hamas (who have a great public relations arm). 500 people killed? Oh, sorry that was 50. Yes, 50 are too many and there needs to be a two-state solution: so many times this has nearly been achieved but time and time again the murderous men (who seek money from well-meaning nations) destroy any hope of a lasting peace.

Israel cut off power and water to Palestine? Yes they did but... who has been the supplier to Palestine of water and electricity? Israel. Has Hamas provided any utilities to their people? No. They take money from well-meaning Governments and spend it on arms, not on their people.
Hamas uses the Palestinian people as their pawns. Rooting out these money-grabbing men is what Israel is doing and may, in the end, be thanked by the Palestinians.

Grany, you are being used. You are obviously an intelligent being but you have jumped on the 'poor Palestine' bandwagon without asking yourself questions about what is reported. This is not a matter of David and Goliath as has been portrayed in the press.

The murder of 1,400 people and kidnapping of 200 more resembled a medieval raid by Mongols for slaughter except it was now recorded in real time and on social media.

Some Western academics, students and activists have denied, excused or even celebrated these murders by a terrorist sect that proclaims an anti-Jewish genocidal programme. The phrase ‘from the river to the sea’ endorses the killing of nine million Israelis. How can educated people justify such callousness and embrace such inhumanity?

Did hundreds of thousands of people march in the street when there was conflict in Syria or Yemen (c. half a million deaths)? No. There is an under-current of anti-Semitism.

In the run up to WW11, there were many British aristocrats who supported Stalin and excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers belong to the same tradition or worse. Perhaps worse, as those in the 1930’s generally came round to the truth, today they have not. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing.

Please don’t be taken in by the pro-Palestine rhetoric. The poor Palestinian people are being used by Hamas for their own ends and Hamas is being used by Iran. The Israeli people need to defend themselves, how can anyone think otherwise?

Glorianny

Casdon

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Save the Children have a petition to Rishi Sunak asking him to ask for a ceasefire and protect all the children . Over 100,000 have signed already.
action.savethechildren.org.uk/page/137213/-/1

Save The Children is an international organisation, why would they approach Rishi Sunak? 🤔

Approach the UN.

We and the US are the main suppliers of arms to Israel. Perhaps it doesn't bother you that we are enabling Israel to kill Palestinian children. But it does me. And if Rishi Sunak was to ask for a ceasefire and to back that with a proviso that he would not grant export licences to any arms manufacturer supplying Israel we might get something done.
The idea that we are without influence is nonsensical

You seem intent on getting Israel to ceasefire

What about Hamas, and of course Hezbollah?

A ceasefire is a mutual pact to stop any acts of aggression over a set period of time.

I can only assume that you haven’t seen/read any of the statements coming from Hamas?

If the U.K. were to unilaterally stop supplying weaponry to Israel it will not make the slightest difference to the situation. The USA will continue to back Israel and no doubt other suppliers would step in to fill the void left by U.K.

The components are hi-tech stuff. It would take time to find another supplier and to ensure compatibility.
In any case isn't there such a thing as a moral stance?
I'm not happy that my country is complicit in the bombing of civilians.
If it is OK could someone tell me how many Palestinian deaths they think are acceptable in order to kill every Hamas member? (Which is impossible for lots of them are not even in Gaza)

And that is the point Glorianny. Not all Hamas are in Gaza. Hamas is driven and supported by external forces. Not all the people who live in Gaza should be there either. It has been deliberately over populated. There has been stealth population increase, way above the worldwide averages since the 1960s. I posted the figures above. You have an ability not to see the situation from any other perspective than civilian deaths, , but many of us find it impossible to do that.

Sorry then Casdon with my "ability not to see the situation from any other perspective than civilian deaths" I really don't understand what the point of bombing Gaza is. If every Palestinian in Gaza were killed Hamas would still exist. So Israel's idea that it can wipe out Hamas by destroying Gaza is an unachievable aim. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
If it is that actually Israel really doesn't care about Palestinian deaths I would entirely agree.
As for the "not all the people who live in Gaza should be there" What are you implying? That there has been an immigration by Hamas? Really the population growth is simple. Look at the figures 65% of he population is under 24, the median age is 18.
And the population growth rate isn't excessive.
It's 39th on the CIA world list www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/population-growth-rate/country-comparison

www.ft.com/content/7b618433-ba5f-4e92-a3e0-d5d41d6d17f8

There has been stealth population increase, way above the worldwide averages since the 1960s. I posted the figures above.

I'll take a look, Casdon.

The increase in population did seem disproportionate to me but I wondered if that was because there was a lack of contraception over many years because of the blockade and previous problems gaining supplies.

Those poor women, I wonder how much say they have in anything? They don't seem to have many rights ☹

Good comments Candelle I too think there are a lot of intelligent people being taken in by the proPalestine group at the moment. I keep seeing the fervent faces of Socialist Workers on the protests for a start waving banners and I wonder if they have any room in their hearts for the one and a half thousand innocent Jewish victims of the crazy murderous spree by hamas thugs.

Casdon that link requires a financial outlay

14:37Candelle

I totally agree with your post Candelle well said. I fully support Israel and it's people and I'm positive the silent majority in the UK do as well.

I still don't understand why the population of Gaza is being questioned. One of the causes of course could be the successive series of conflicts, birth rates usually rise after such events.

UNRWA reports on the situation www.unrwa.org/resources/reports/unrwa-situation-report-22-situation-gaza-strip-and-west-bank-including-east-Jerusalem

GrannyGravy13

Gloriany like Grany you haven’t offered an opinion on Hamas’s oft repeated intentions of eliminating all Jews from Israel and the world.

It is of course completely unacceptable, but also completely unachievable.
An Israeli minister said he would drop nuclear bombs on Gaza.
Extremism is not limited to one side.

Welcome Candelle and thanks for your posts. I’m exhausted by the distorted polarising posts from Grany and Gloryanny.

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Gloriany like Grany you haven’t offered an opinion on Hamas’s oft repeated intentions of eliminating all Jews from Israel and the world.

It is of course completely unacceptable, but also completely unachievable.
An Israeli minister said he would drop nuclear bombs on Gaza.
Extremism is not limited to one side.

No one is suggesting extremism is limited to ‘one side’ in this desperate conflict.
One minister made an outrageous claim, he got sacked. Hamas continue to have the elimination of Jewish people as their aim and we have people chanting from the river etc in the uk.

GrannyGravy13

Gloriany like Grany you haven’t offered an opinion on Hamas’s oft repeated intentions of eliminating all Jews from Israel and the world.

Because there is no defence of that stated intention.

Thank you for your post Candelle

I feel anguish for the Palestinian people, particularly the women and children but remain amazed that intelligent people can be taken in by the propaganda of a terrorist group.

Thank you ,Candelle for your clear post.

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Gloriany like Grany you haven’t offered an opinion on Hamas’s oft repeated intentions of eliminating all Jews from Israel and the world.

It is of course completely unacceptable, but also completely unachievable.
An Israeli minister said he would drop nuclear bombs on Gaza.
Extremism is not limited to one side.

Did you miss the post where you were told that he'd been sacked?
“Eliyahu’s statements are not based in reality,” Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in a statement on X.

Candelle you have your opinion I have mine. Don't be taken in by Israel propaganda. Netanyahu is corrupt so are his goverment ministers.

The labour leader and ten labour councillors have just resigned from Burnley council over Sir Keir Starmer’s stance, Sky news.
I am appalled with the bloodshed, wanton destruction of life life and sheer brutality of this war, as with most wars.

Callistemon21

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Gloriany like Grany you haven’t offered an opinion on Hamas’s oft repeated intentions of eliminating all Jews from Israel and the world.

It is of course completely unacceptable, but also completely unachievable.
An Israeli minister said he would drop nuclear bombs on Gaza.
Extremism is not limited to one side.

Did you miss the post where you were told that he'd been sacked?
^“Eliyahu’s statements are not based in reality,” Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in a statement on X.^

So what if he has been sacked?
He made the statement.
Dismissing the extremist views of one group of people is never a balanced view of things.
Could Israel drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza? They probably have the ability.
Could Hamas wipe out all Jews- highly unlikely. They simply don't have the capacity.
But both statements are extremist in nature.
Ignoring one isn't acceptable or balanced.