Should any marches around or near the Cenotaph this weekend not be allowed?

I also remember the Blitz.

eazybee

I also remember the Blitz.

The difference was that London survived and Dresden was flattened in an attempt to terrorize the civilian population both locally and nationally in order to force a surrender.

Yes, perhaps we should have waved a white flag and let Hitler and his fascists take over.

Well there had to be a surrender didn’t there? Otherwise we’d all now be living under fascism.

Callistemon21

Yes, perhaps we should have waved a white flag and let Hitler and his fascists take over.

The war was over and Hitler defeated. One of my neighbours was an RAF bomber- he never recovered as he knew this.

The dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima was justified at the time as being moral – in order to bring about a more rapid victory and prevent the deaths of more Americans. However, it was clearly not moral to use this weapon knowing that it would kill civilians and destroy the urban milieu. And it wasn’t necessary either.

Militarily Japan was finished (as the Soviet invasion of Manchuria that August showed). Further blockade and urban destruction would have produced a surrender in August or September at the latest, without the need for the costly anticipated invasion or the atomic bomb. As for the second bomb on Nagasaki, that was just as unnecessary as the first one. It was deemed to be needed, partly because it was a different design, and the military (and many civilian scientists) were keen to see if they both worked the same way. There was, in other words, a cynical scientific imperative at work as well.

"The war was over and Hitler defeated. One of my neighbours was an RAF bomber- he never recovered as he knew this.

The dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima was justified at the time as being moral – in order to bring about a more rapid victory and prevent the deaths of more Americans. However, it was clearly not moral to use this weapon knowing that it would kill civilians and destroy the urban milieu. And it wasn’t necessary either.

Militarily Japan was finished (as the Soviet invasion of Manchuria that August showed). Further blockade and urban destruction would have produced a surrender in August or September at the latest, without the need for the costly anticipated invasion or the atomic bomb. As for the second bomb on Nagasaki, that was just as unnecessary as the first one. It was deemed to be needed, partly because it was a different design, and the military (and many civilian scientists) were keen to see if they both worked the same way. There was, in other words, a cynical scientific imperative at work as well."
(Whitewavemark)

Yes, the full story is never simple.

Some replies come perilously close to jingoism.

Some replies come perilously close to jingoism

Really?? 🤔

Lectures on what our parents endred now from someone whose country remained neutral!!

Thst is not a criticism of a country's stance btw, war is a truly dreadful thing but sometimes it is necessary to stand up and fight evil.

Indeed. I would go further and criticise that stance given what was happening all around.

Germanshepherdsmum

Indeed. I would go further and criticise that stance given what was happening all around.

Well, yes, what happened to treasures looted from Jewish people by the Nazis?

How neutral is neutral?

Good question. Also a well known depository for dodgy funds.

Fleurpepper

Callistemon21

Yes, perhaps we should have waved a white flag and let Hitler and his fascists take over.

The war was over and Hitler defeated. One of my neighbours was an RAF bomber- he never recovered as he knew this.

The dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima was justified at the time as being moral – in order to bring about a more rapid victory and prevent the deaths of more Americans. However, it was clearly not moral to use this weapon knowing that it would kill civilians and destroy the urban milieu. And it wasn’t necessary either.

Militarily Japan was finished (as the Soviet invasion of Manchuria that August showed). Further blockade and urban destruction would have produced a surrender in August or September at the latest, without the need for the costly anticipated invasion or the atomic bomb. As for the second bomb on Nagasaki, that was just as unnecessary as the first one. It was deemed to be needed, partly because it was a different design, and the military (and many civilian scientists) were keen to see if they both worked the same way. There was, in other words, a cynical scientific imperative at work as well.

Well thank you for the history “lesson” Fleurpepper I expect those of us whose family fought in WWII are more than aware of the facts pertaining thereto.
But just as my mother who became a naturalised UK citizen in 1947 would have hesitated to lecture anybody on the history of the Second World War , I would respectfully suggest your contribution is superfluous.

This contribution, not saying any contribution from you, to avoid any misunderstanding.

Indeed. ‘The war was over’ - tell that to those who fought in the Far East, those in Japanese PoW camps. A late neighbour was one such. I believe we are all pretty well aware of the events of WWII as a result of our parents - even some of our older members - having lived through it as well as through our own studies, and we don’t need lectures on the subject from an unqualified person. My husband is a military historian so I get to hear a great deal of real knowledge about this and other wars.

And some of us lost parents too.

Yes. A sad fact.

Germanshepherdsmum

Indeed. ‘The war was over’ - tell that to those who fought in the Far East, those in Japanese PoW camps. A late neighbour was one such. I believe we are all pretty well aware of the events of WWII as a result of our parents - even some of our older members - having lived through it as well as through our own studies, and we don’t need lectures on the subject from an unqualified person. My husband is a military historian so I get to hear a great deal of real knowledge about this and other wars.

Thanks gsm.

My neighbour, the father of a good friend, was an officer, captured with his troop and put to work on the bridge over the river `Kwai. He was in his 80’s when he led his troops at the commemoration of VJ Day. He answered his son’s question, do you ever think about the war dad with ‘yes, every minute of every day’. He added he dreamed every night about his morning task in the camp, to select the men fit to work, knowing that men unfit might be shot. Fleurpepper’s post about her neighbour who ‘never got over’ his involvement in bombing at a time when in her view, the war was over, reminded me of This kind, gentle family man who ran a local mill, became our Liberal MP and contributed to society throughout his life.

He sounds like my old neighbour, who after returning from the War as skin and bone, started and built up a local business and did much for the community. I suspect that within his mind the war was never over but he put on an incredibly brave public face. Perhaps Fleurpepper has not met survivors of the Japanese PoW camps. If she had it would give her cause for thought about how the war in Japan was ended and her country’s neutrality.

Reading this thread and as always at this time of year, I remember the story of my Gfather, which I hope you all wont mind if I write a little about him.
At just 19 years of age, he was awarded a few medals for his actions in Ww1. Mentioned in despatches, sought out by the news papers who reported his story, much to his embarrassment, and his mothers pride.
Then recommended to be promoted to the RAF, trained as a pilot but became ill with TB caught in the trenches.
Was consequently sent back to the UK because of his ill health.

He couldn't find work and eventually a group of ex soldiers, friends and comrades were so disillusioned with the lack of support when they returned home, that they marched to the largest river running through our home town and threw their medals in it.
He died after that, leaving my Gran with a young daughter to raise, on her own.

3 or four graves down from Gdads, is the white headstone of a private, seems as if no one visits, he died at 21 years of age. I like to put some sprigs of rosemary on his grave when I visit the cemetery, in remembrance.

Namsnanny - thank you for telling us about your gfsther. The older I get, the more aware I become about the experiences that shaped out grandparents and parents.

I like to put some sprigs of rosemary on his grave when I visit the cemetery, in remembrance

A lovely thing to do, NamsNanny
We wear a sprig of rosemary for remembrance on Gallipoli Day, 25th April, here, also known as Anzac Day which is the when the big services of remembrance are held at dawn in Australia and New Zealand.

Iam64

Namsnanny - thank you for telling us about your gfsther. The older I get, the more aware I become about the experiences that shaped out grandparents and parents.

👍what you say is so true Iam64. Its good for us to recognise how fortunate we are today.

Callistemon do Australians wear Rosemary too, or is this a personal custom?
For another thread but I love Bill Bailey's program touring Australia!

Namsnanny

Callistemon do Australians wear Rosemary too, or is this a personal custom?
For another thread but I love Bill Bailey's program touring Australia!

We have been there for a service and we did, I'm sure others did too.

The reason being that there was a lot of rosemary growing on the Gallipoli peninsula and rosemary is a symbol of remembrance too.

Ophelia: "There's rosemary, that's for remembrance. Pray you, love, remember."

I think it's supposed to be good for the memory if you eat it too.