What is antisemitism?

I don't agree that fascist politicians are wielding power in Israel. Admittedly, some of the politicians in the current coalition government are ultra right wing and don't appear to be very savoury characters, but they're not fascist.

I don't understand how anti- Semitism has managed to persist after the massive wave of horror which followed from the revelation of the Holocaust at the end of WW2.

Is it just that the weight of centuries of anti-Semitism is too heavy to be dispelled even by Hitler's brutal genocide?

Antisemitism, like any variant of bigotry, isn't rational. Some people seem to be so full of hatred that they even deny the Holocaust and/or maintain the Jews only had themselves to blame.

Historically, most antisemitism has been perpetuated by Christians. I think the current pro-Palestinian antisemitism is something more complicated. The core of it is about land (and if I were Palestinian I'd be pretty miffed about being turfed off my land because Europeans had caused problems), but it's coalesced into tribalism and more "traditional" antisemites have joined in.

I don't understand either MaizieD. We have Holocaust Memorial Day every year, in January some time, and on each occasion survivors share their stories while we shudder and try to understand. Then, for the rest of the year that scab continues to be scratched away at as feelings of anti semitisn rear up again. Is it because Jews expect special treatment because of the Holocaust?
I don't think it has anything to do with the creation of Israel. As others have said, anti semitisn goes much deeper and has been going on for centuries. Being Jewish is seen by some almost as a crime from the beginning of time.

Galaxy

I think or am beginning to think that antisemitism is the racism of the middle class.

I would sincerely hope that it’s not just a ‘middle class’ thing!

IMO there’s always been a strong vein of anti-semitism in the U.K. and of course elsewhere - you only have to read some older novels to see the casual disparaging references to Jews - or to ‘a gentleman of the Hebrew persuasion’ as Trollope once put it. (Though to his credit he did once portray the Jewish suitor of an aristocratic woman, as an infinitely more worthy character than she was.)

Only now, instead of being IMO fairly taboo to express it, because of the current horrendous situation it’s become almost ‘fashionable’ in some circles to express it, and to lump all Jews in with the actions of the current Israeli government.

Since Starmar became leader, the Labour Party has continuesly expelled any LP member who dared to express any support for the Palestinian movement, or opposition to the current fascist government in Israel. Many of those expelled were Jewish and many had been LP members and active workers for decades See
Now, it appears that even daring to equate what Israel is doing in Gaza with what the Nazi's did is a crime.

I am Jewish, not a Zionist, and totally and absolutely in opposition to the current Israeli government.

I listen with horror to Israeli government spokesmen informing us that whereas they do not target schools and hospitals, they have to bomb these as Hamas soldiers may be hiding there. The best example of 1984 Newspeak I have ever come across!!!

Really is time to distinguish between JEWS and Israeli Government. I am sure there are plenty of anti-semites out there, sadly most religions seem to have inbuilt fear of other religions, and the closer they are, the more hatred.

Of course, as has been pointed out Palestinians are Semites also.

Looks like KS will loose quite a few of his front benchers.

Stats for Lefties
@LeftieStats

🚨 NEW: Channel 4's Cathy Newman reports that 17 Labour frontbenchers expect to be sacked on Wednesday for voting in favour of a Gaza ceasefire.

The shadow ministers are demanding that Starmer call for an "immediate ceasefire". Starmer has repeatedly ruled this out.

If America said let’s call for a ceasefire Starmer RS would too.
They do what America wants. We are the 51st State.

Other similar countries as ours France does not follow America’s lead nor did they approve of the Iraq war.

Witzend

Galaxy

I think or am beginning to think that antisemitism is the racism of the middle class.

I would sincerely hope that it’s not just a ‘middle class’ thing!

IMO there’s always been a strong vein of anti-semitism in the U.K. and of course elsewhere - you only have to read some older novels to see the casual disparaging references to Jews - or to ‘a gentleman of the Hebrew persuasion’ as Trollope once put it. (Though to his credit he did once portray the Jewish suitor of an aristocratic woman, as an infinitely more worthy character than she was.)

Only now, instead of being IMO fairly taboo to express it, because of the current horrendous situation it’s become almost ‘fashionable’ in some circles to express it, and to lump all Jews in with the actions of the current Israeli government.

The Merchant of Venice is a case in point.

Read by generations of school children, performed on stage and taken at face value for many years until it became a favourite of the Nazis and people did realise that it was anti-semitic.

I don't think that, even in the 1950s and 60s, we were taught in school to examine the darker undertones of this play.

There is another thread about Starmer.

This is an interesting thread and it would be a pity to sidetrack it with politics.

Not forgetting Fagin

There is always a rump in any country that will scapegoat another group. For some it is anyone with a skin that isn’t white, for others it is those whose cultural background is Islamic or Judaism, for others it is those seeking asylum from war, starvation or political persecution.

None of it is rational nor makes sense.

But it is a continued fight that everyone should be aware needs resisting. The word “woke” I think is now used to deride those who are awake and resistant to these prejudices.

It's universal, though, Whitewave, sadly.

So-called civilised countries like the UK, Australia, New Zealand, especially Canada should be ashamed.

Growstuff’s post yesterday at 22.31 (won’t let me quote). This is it exactly. Jews have been “othered” for centuries, in many countries, for many reasons. That is why they sought a homeland. What, I believe, they did not seek was what they have now in the Netanyahu government. I am from Jewish extraction and I do not support the Israeli government.

Callistemon makes a good point about Shakespeare's anti-semitism. From Chaucer, through Shakespeare and Dickens to Roald Dahl writers have overtly or covertly displayed antisemitism.
Some antisemitism either seeks to deny its spread or attempts to minimise or divert attention away to other 'more important' considerations.
Being critical of Netanyahu and his government is not antisemitic.

The English crime writers in the 20’s and 30’s were casually anti semitic

I do have feelings about how Israel has treated Palestine but am certainly not antisemetic. I have never understood why they seem to have been universally disliked through history.

My question is this, is abuse being increasingly directed at Jews randomly in real life on the streets or is it the fear of potential abuse that worries them. Personally unless in orthodox dress not sure how anyone Jewish would be recognisable.
I am nervous about being out alone in the dark in case I am assaulted or robbed or whatever. So far nothing has happened but still, my fear stops me from going out at night.
Can it be fear of what might happen that makes Jewish schools get security guards. I don’t know but do wonder.

I don't think that antisemitism is middleclass, rather it stems from a lack of understanding of the religion and its practices.

I am not being antisemitic in pointing this out. All religions have strange habits as far as I'm concerned. Having been brought up in the Anglican Church I have been an atheist since my late teens.

A few examples which may be of interest. They may go some way to explaining why some people are antisemitic in the UK.

Women wearing wigs to cover their hair when in public. Some women shave their heads. Others wear scarves or hats.

Men wearing long side locks and long beards

Both the above are worn primarily by some Hasidic and Yemenite Jews but not all.

An eruv - what is it?
An eruv is a symbolic enclosure that surrounds the Jewish community. Under Jewish law, carrying on the Sabbath is allowed within the eruv because the entire area within the eruv is considered as if a single property. The area is denoted by ared string tied around trees, telegraph poles etc.

Eruvs are nearly always a contentious topic, and not only within the Jewish community. Eruv construction expands the area in which observant Jews can comfortably live, meaning that more Jews may move to the area, an outcome which upsets anyone prejudiced against Haredim, or Jews more generally.

Here is a link to a Guardian article about plans to establish a new eruv in London. The article is 7 years old:

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/09/residents-divided-over-plans-for-eruv-in-north-london

I think it's more to do with the idea that certain sections of society like to think they are the guardian angels or allies of the oppressed, and they dont see Jews as sufficiently oppressed.

Dinahmo, Manchester has the largest Jewish community in the country outside London. The orthodox communities you refer to are not representative of the wider community. I don’t understand why their dress or religious observance would lead to anti semitism

Silver lining, the fear within the Jewish community is based on increasing anti semitism eg swastikas painted on schools, abuse shouted at people
Like any other immigrant community, Jewish people preferred to live near people like themselves. Angel Meadow was a very poor area in the outskirts of Manchester City. In the mid 19century the inhabitants were largely Irish and Jews from Eastern Europe. The two communities helped each other facing Poverty and desperation .
As the Jewish immigrants became established they progressed down the road to Cheetham Hill which is still inhabited by many Jewish families.

I agree with Galaxy. Some who see themselves as guardians of the oppressed don’t see the Jewish community as sufficiently oppressed

A few examples which may be of interest. They may go some way to explaining why some people are antisemitic in the UK

That is a non-sequitur.

The fact that orthodox Jews may have a certain style of dress does not cause anti-semitism.

The anti-semite recognises a person as a Jew if they follow a certain style of dress or headwear.
To a person who is not anti-semitic it means nothing. The anti-semitism is rather regardless of dress.

there not rather

Iam64

Dinahmo, Manchester has the largest Jewish community in the country outside London. The orthodox communities you refer to are not representative of the wider community. I don’t understand why their dress or religious observance would lead to anti semitism

Silver lining, the fear within the Jewish community is based on increasing anti semitism eg swastikas painted on schools, abuse shouted at people
Like any other immigrant community, Jewish people preferred to live near people like themselves. Angel Meadow was a very poor area in the outskirts of Manchester City. In the mid 19century the inhabitants were largely Irish and Jews from Eastern Europe. The two communities helped each other facing Poverty and desperation .
As the Jewish immigrants became established they progressed down the road to Cheetham Hill which is still inhabited by many Jewish families.

I agree with Galaxy. Some who see themselves as guardians of the oppressed don’t see the Jewish community as sufficiently oppressed

I think that many people know little about the more orthodox Jews and don't understand them and it is possible that there is a lack of integration with those groups. In the same way as people find the lack of integration with some Pakestani groups difficult.

Callistemon21

^A few examples which may be of interest. They may go some way to explaining why some people are antisemitic in the UK^

That is a non-sequitur.

The fact that orthodox Jews may have a certain style of dress does not cause anti-semitism.

The anti-semite recognises a person as a Jew if they follow a certain style of dress or headwear.
To a person who is not anti-semitic it means nothing. The anti-semitism is rather regardless of dress.

In my opening sentence I said that antisemitism stems from a lack of understanding of the religion and its practices. I should have included perhaps.

Some people are open to a wide range of cultures and others aren't. Why is that?

Fear?

Narrow life experience, growing up in families where bigotry is a way of life. Can you imagine the way those white male thugs fighting the police influence their children