So pleased to see hostages being released.

Or maybe they are, but not today anyway.

Thanks Maddy. No I didn’t think your post was accusing me. I have my views but felt the need to reiterate that I am not and never have been antisemetic or anti any other racial or ethnic group.
I may not like the way Israeli government behaves but that’s quite another matter.
I don’t much like the way our government behaves either.

maddyone

Of course the politics of the Middle East and Israel go back many years. We all know this, but what started this particular conflict were the awful events of 7/10. We all know this too.
Unsubstantiated claims such as that the IDF are targeting civilians don’t help. Actually I don’t believe that. I’ve seen footage on media, BBC and ITV so mainstream reporting, showing the IDF fighting and what I saw does not support such a claim but that is very limited to a few minutes of footage.
We don’t have any way of knowing if the horrendous loss of life claimed by Hamas is correct, but we do know that there have been huge losses. There have also been heavy losses of Hamas fighters and IDF soldiers.
The upshot is we don’t know a lot, but we do know much. What we believe or don’t believe won’t make any difference in the long run. This war will run its course. Netanyahu will go. A new leader will be elected and hopefully a new era of peace will reign. It won’t last though, because it never does in this region.
What does bother me though, is the way this particular war ignites such fierce emotions whereas Ukraine, Syria, Yemen, and indeed other wars, do not ignite the same emotions and certainly not for so long, and I’m concerned that this is because this war involves Israel and Jewish people.

I think it's the number of deaths, particularly of women and children and the destruction of such a highly populated small area that is the focus for so many. Since the war in Ukraine began in 2021 10,000 civilians have been killed including 560 children with 18,500 people injured. This is distressing but at least women and children have been able to move to safety with nearly 6 million moving to safety in other countries.

In Gaza over 17,500 people have died with a very high proportion being children, over 46,000 have been injured and this is in two months. I am aware that some will dispute these figures but generally these figures are accepted as being reasonably accurate. They might be on the low side as there are still so many buildings that have not been searched. The population of Gaza are being asked to move constantly into safe areas, which often are not safe at all and many are living out in the open, without food, water, heat or sanitation creating a humanitarian disaster. There is no "safe place" to move to.

It was mentioned that the war in Ukraine was more relevant to us, IMO both of these "wars" are equally demanding of our condemnation on humanitarian grounds and I'm sure Putin is delighted to see what is happening in Gaza and probably hoping for other countries to join in. However, the UK is not immune from what happens in the Middle East. We have already seen the effects to our own economy of the war in Ukraine and if there is an extension to the conflict in the Middle East, we, and the rest of Europe will see further damage to our economies. Top three producers of Oil are the US, Russia and Saudi Arabia. Venezuela, Nigeria and Brazil and Canada also are big producers but of those only Canada is politically stable. We have already seen what happens when shipping can't use the Suez canal, our economy grinds to a halt. We live in very dangerous times.

Line-ups of UK Jewish, Palestinian and Middle Eastern performers all in aid of the charity Medical Aid for Palestine.

People from all sides of the equation, working together for a humanitarian cause without shouting encouragement for retribution and revenge.

The EU wants to send aid to Gaza by sea. I hope the UK will join in with this. Aid being delivered through the Rafah checkpoint is unable to be transported because of the devastation and dangers. Gaza is a country with a long coastline, so aid would be easily distributed. But will Israel allow it?
www.politico.eu/article/cyprus-humanitarian-aid-gaza-european-union-israel-hamas-shipments/

Another poor child in the news. 4 years old had to have his hand amputated and has many injuries and no pain relief and most of his family are dead. There must be an end to this and aid needs to get through to these poor people.

Glorianny

The EU wants to send aid to Gaza by sea. I hope the UK will join in with this. Aid being delivered through the Rafah checkpoint is unable to be transported because of the devastation and dangers. Gaza is a country with a long coastline, so aid would be easily distributed. But will Israel allow it?
www.politico.eu/article/cyprus-humanitarian-aid-gaza-european-union-israel-hamas-shipments/

I havent read your link Glorianny.
Getting aid to the people is something laudable.

But if it all goes to Hamas and not to the people who need it what use will it be?

Algezera tv had an interview with a Palastinian woman who said:
"Let them kill or torture me, as God is my witness NO aid or food or water gets to the people. It all goes to Hamas and they refuse to hand any on to us"

It seems so cruel to treat your own flesh and blood in such a manner.

Namsnanny

Glorianny

The EU wants to send aid to Gaza by sea. I hope the UK will join in with this. Aid being delivered through the Rafah checkpoint is unable to be transported because of the devastation and dangers. Gaza is a country with a long coastline, so aid would be easily distributed. But will Israel allow it?
www.politico.eu/article/cyprus-humanitarian-aid-gaza-european-union-israel-hamas-shipments/

I havent read your link Glorianny.
Getting aid to the people is something laudable.

But if it all goes to Hamas and not to the people who need it what use will it be?

Algezera tv had an interview with a Palastinian woman who said:
"Let them kill or torture me, as God is my witness NO aid or food or water gets to the people. It all goes to Hamas and they refuse to hand any on to us"

It seems so cruel to treat your own flesh and blood in such a manner.

I would imagine as Hamas were the ruling party and in control of Gaza they administered some of the aid. However much of the aid is administered by UNWR who have had been working in Gaza for a long time. I would imagine they would see it was fairly distributed.
101 of their aid workers have been killed in the war.

I stopped posting on here because tbh I was finding the whole situation in Gaza too upsetting. However, I heard two interviews this morning on the radio which gave me a little hope. One with the son of a peace activist who was killed on 7/10 and the other with a Palestinian activist who lives on the West Bank. The full article is on the BBC website but the last sentence is:
"So much needs to go right for peace to have a chance. So much has already gone wrong that peace might just be impossible."
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67701700

I am not religious so I can't pray to God for peace but I do sincerely hope and wish for a change in the Israeli govt, enough forgiveness on all sides that they can realise peace is the only solution for the future and is able to recognise that that compromises have to be made, and lastly the political will and commitment of the International community to broker a peace treaty that is fair to both sides.

foxie48 I also hope and pray for a workable peace between Israel & Palestine. The will has got to be 100% on both sides of the divide, and the counties mediating and negotiating have got to tread very carefully.

There is still a lot of hurt and anguish and memories of 7/10 and the following weeks will always be with the people.

I think peace is a long way off tbh.The best to be hoped for is aid getting into Gaza that hamas don’t steal, Palestinians realising what hamas has brought down on them and that they are the real enemy here, and Israel bringing this conflict to as swift an end as they possibly can while achieving their goals.

I haven’t posted for a few days either, because like foxie I’m finding the whole situation in Israel/Gaza too disturbing. I still watch the news reports and scan the headlines but then get on with something else. Almost the same with Ukraine too. Knowing about the awful suffering of so many people is almost too much to be totally absorbed in and there comes a point where we need to distance ourselves somewhat. That said, I tend to agree with Oreo in that I don’t think this situation will end very soon, anymore than it will in Ukraine. Putin will not give up, whatever the human cost in Russian or Ukrainian lives, and Israel will not stop until Hamas are totally disabled for the foreseeable future. They claim to have killed 7000 Hamas fighters, but we have no way to know whether this true. It is also claimed that there were 30,000 Hamas fighters to begin with, but again we have no way to verify that, although I would have thought Israeli intelligence would have had some idea of appropriate numbers, and that’s probably where the number has come from. Nonetheless those numbers suggest that there are still some 23,000 Hamas fighters/operatives in Gaza, which is what I base my opinion on in that this will go on for some time yet.

I’m another finding the desperate situation in Gaza-Israel so distressing that I limit my news viewing as well as this thread.
Whilst I don’t support the Netanyahu bombing campaign, I’m concerned that the actions of Hamas are almost excused by some people
We need skilled negotiators and movement from the Israeli government and Hamas/Palestinian representatives.

Israel is just continuing its land grab using October 7th as justification.Did no one see the IDF celebrating and dancing on the news last night .singing about wiping out Palestinians ?
Has no one seen the march in London of Hasidic Jews in SUPPORT of Palestine?
Are THEY antisemitic?
Seems any of us who dare to question Israeli policies and WAR CRIMES are all anti semitic so I guess these jews are too?

"On the most recent Palestine demonstration in London, on 9th December 2023, the Jewish Bloc found itself subject to unwanted and unwarranted “protection” from the police.
As has happened on every demonstration, the Jewish bloc was greeted with warmth and enthusiasm, and when we reached our stopping point, the marchers cheered and clapped as they passed, defying the claim that these are hate marches fuelled by antisemitism, that are making our cities unsafe for Jews. On the contrary, participants come and talk to us, shake hands, hug us. They take photos of our banners and placards, which represent many Jewish groups, including the Jewish Socialists’ Group, Jewish Voice for Labour, Na’amod, Israel Coalition Against House Demolitions, Black Jewish Alliance, Jews for Justice for Palestinians and others, as well as individuals who coalesce around the bloc.
This time a cordon of police officers materialised in front of us, separating us from the march. They apparently had the idea that, since we were Jews, we must be counterdemonstrators. We tried again and again to explain that we were there in support of the Palestinians. Anyone who could read the placards and hear the chants – Free free Palestine! Ceasefire now! Not in our name! – would have understood.
On every protest, more and more Jewish people, devastated at Netanyahu’s relentless criminal actions in Gaza, are gaining the confidence to join us. The Jewish bloc is growing stronger both politically and numerically in support for the terrorised populations of Gaza and the West Bank, as well as for those Israelis who continue to stand alongside and help protect the Palestinians who share that land, and who are being shot at, imprisoned and threatened by their own state for refusing to be silent."
Julia’s article in full ….
juliabard.com/2023/12/12/divide-and-rule/...

Glorianny I would imagine etc.
Unfortunately imagination is completely useless in these situations.
We can only work with what we know.
I think it would be beyond naive to do otherwise.

paddyann54

"On the most recent Palestine demonstration in London, on 9th December 2023, the Jewish Bloc found itself subject to unwanted and unwarranted “protection” from the police.
As has happened on every demonstration, the Jewish bloc was greeted with warmth and enthusiasm, and when we reached our stopping point, the marchers cheered and clapped as they passed, defying the claim that these are hate marches fuelled by antisemitism, that are making our cities unsafe for Jews. On the contrary, participants come and talk to us, shake hands, hug us. They take photos of our banners and placards, which represent many Jewish groups, including the Jewish Socialists’ Group, Jewish Voice for Labour, Na’amod, Israel Coalition Against House Demolitions, Black Jewish Alliance, Jews for Justice for Palestinians and others, as well as individuals who coalesce around the bloc.
This time a cordon of police officers materialised in front of us, separating us from the march. They apparently had the idea that, since we were Jews, we must be counterdemonstrators. We tried again and again to explain that we were there in support of the Palestinians. Anyone who could read the placards and hear the chants – Free free Palestine! Ceasefire now! Not in our name! – would have understood.
On every protest, more and more Jewish people, devastated at Netanyahu’s relentless criminal actions in Gaza, are gaining the confidence to join us. The Jewish bloc is growing stronger both politically and numerically in support for the terrorised populations of Gaza and the West Bank, as well as for those Israelis who continue to stand alongside and help protect the Palestinians who share that land, and who are being shot at, imprisoned and threatened by their own state for refusing to be silent."
Julia’s article in full ….
juliabard.com/2023/12/12/divide-and-rule/...

Thank you for posting Julia Bard's article. I attended the anti-War demonstrations in London back in 2003 when the invasion against Iraq was imminent. There were plenty of Jewish people on those marches as well. One march was held on a Saturday, with a stage set-up outside Parliament. Some Hasidic Jews stood silently on the stage, and it was explained that they had wanted to attend, but unable to speak as it was their Sabbath. This explanation drew a round of applause from the people attending the protest in appreciation of the Hasidic Jews' attendance.

I am not Jewish myself, but have close colleagues and friends who are, and who are, without exception, kind, thoughtful and humane people, who will be horrified at the atrocities being carried out in their name.

Presumably they were equally horrified at the massacre on 7th October? Unbelievable, unspeakable cruelty and many hostages still incarcerated. The young woman and her two little boys are still, heaven knows where. Hamas has said they are dead along with their father but who knows! I think this event that started this horror is being being.slowly forgotten, swept under the carpet, recollections are becoming hazy, perhaps we should all recollect back to day 1 to get some.perspective.

Should read, 'reflect', not recollect.

Jaberwok I don't think anyone here has forgotten the vile crimes of Hamas on 7/10 but nothing condones what the IDF is doing in Gaza. The US has described the bombing as "indiscriminate" and has repeatedly asked the Israeli govt to increase efforts to protect Palestinian civilians as the number of deaths is unacceptable. Israel has the right to defend itself but the crimes of Hamas do not give the Israeli govt a licence to slaughter women and children.

I think anyone with half a brain has "perspective" and the truth is this is a WAR CRIME against the Palestinian people....there is no justification for Israel's actions HAMAS is not Palestine nor is it PALESTINIANS .There should have been no collateral damage to homes or hospitals ,especially not UN run institutions and the loss of innocent lives is beyond belief .With its "superior intelligence services" why didn't Israel intercept HAMAS on Oct 7th...they were warned the attack was imminent .As I said before ,this is their justification for killing Palestinians and taking their land.Watch and see how quickly the land in Gaza is cleared and rebuilt with Jewish homes !!

You're right it is a horrendous situation, but tell me, how else does Israel destroy Hamas who have vowed to repeat those atrocities again and again until Israel is wiped off the face of earth and every Jew world wide killed? How does Israel prevent Palestinian children being used as human shields? Adults too? This conflict could end tomorrow if Hamas would release the hostages,.but of course they won't. Hamas started this conflict in order to prevent a deal which was on the verge of being signed by Israel.with Saudi Arabia, and it is Hamas who have brought this horror upon their own people, it is the Hamas so called government who have not protected their civilians, breaking the golden rule of every government, that is, the protection of its population. It.is Hamas who are stealing the necessities.of life from the Palestinian people to further their terrorism against Israel. Like Germany, those poor people need liberating from their own evil government.

Foxie48 Israel doesnt have licence from any one.
Its between a rock and a hard place.
Stop Hamas continuing to threaten Jews, and it will all stop.

Absolutely! As Golda Mier is alleged to have said " If neighbouring coutrys put down their weapons we would all live in peace. If Israel puts down its weapons, 'we' would be annihilated ". Perhaps if Hamas didn't use hospitals, schools and other public places to store weapons, ammunition, food, water, fuel, dig tunnels under these places and so on, (in itself exremely dangerous to civilians) Israel wouldn't feel the need to be so heavy handed. Mind.you, perhaps Israel could appeal to the UN to ask Hamas to free the hostages and promise not to launch any more attacks including rockets on a daily basis? The same useless UN who were so ineffective in Bosnia! Perhaps not! Quite frankly, the only people who can protect Israel/Jews is Israel, hence their aggressive attitude.

Jaberwok

Absolutely! As Golda Mier is alleged to have said " If neighbouring coutrys put down their weapons we would all live in peace. If Israel puts down its weapons, 'we' would be annihilated ". Perhaps if Hamas didn't use hospitals, schools and other public places to store weapons, ammunition, food, water, fuel, dig tunnels under these places and so on, (in itself exremely dangerous to civilians) Israel wouldn't feel the need to be so heavy handed. Mind.you, perhaps Israel could appeal to the UN to ask Hamas to free the hostages and promise not to launch any more attacks including rockets on a daily basis? The same useless UN who were so ineffective in Bosnia! Perhaps not! Quite frankly, the only people who can protect Israel/Jews is Israel, hence their aggressive attitude.

The concept that bombing Palestine or killing Palestinians will in any way destroy Hamas is rejected by any who have experience in conflict situations and terrorism. You cannot kill an idea. Obviously Israel knows this, as most other people do. No matter how many people are killed more will be recruited.