So pleased to see hostages being released.

From the Guardian diary of Ziad a 35 yr old Palestinian in Gaza at Christmas.
It is Christmas today. In another country, far away from ours, there is a family celebrating. Their house is full of light, they are smiling, hugging each other out of love, sharing gifts, and hoping for the best future.
Here there is no Christmas, Instead there are families living in complete darkness, sad, hugging each other out of fear, sharing prayers, and hoping they will get out of this nightmare alive.

Our fellow human beings. Nothing more to add really.

Glorianny
Don’t attempt to explain (dictate) my position to me and then go on to state why it’s unsustainable. Yet again, you’re attributing comments to me that have been made by other posters.

As for Hamas being terrorists - they are, and your position that they are some kind of political party is unsustainable. Not only unsustainable but nonsensical. Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation; the fact that you don’t recognise that doesn’t make it any less so.

This other nonsense you repeatedly post regarding the UK being partly, if not wholly, responsible for the situation in Israel/Gaza because it supplies arms is, in my view, ludicrous. Castigate Israel as much as you like but to blame the UK for what’s happening at present is ridiculous.

The Israeli government have gone way too far in my opinion and I have stated such before but I have yet to see you put the blame squarely where it belongs with Hamas. They caused this, they are terrorists who terrorise not only Jews but their own people whilst their leaders live in luxury in Qatar with their stolen aid money.

I shall ignore any replies from you as I can’t take you seriously I’m afraid.

By Glorianny’s logic, the U.K. and many other EU Countries along with USA are guilty of killing Russians as we are supplying weaponry…

tickingbird

Glorianny
Don’t attempt to explain (dictate) my position to me and then go on to state why it’s unsustainable. Yet again, you’re attributing comments to me that have been made by other posters.

As for Hamas being terrorists - they are, and your position that they are some kind of political party is unsustainable. Not only unsustainable but nonsensical. Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation; the fact that you don’t recognise that doesn’t make it any less so.

This other nonsense you repeatedly post regarding the UK being partly, if not wholly, responsible for the situation in Israel/Gaza because it supplies arms is, in my view, ludicrous. Castigate Israel as much as you like but to blame the UK for what’s happening at present is ridiculous.

The Israeli government have gone way too far in my opinion and I have stated such before but I have yet to see you put the blame squarely where it belongs with Hamas. They caused this, they are terrorists who terrorise not only Jews but their own people whilst their leaders live in luxury in Qatar with their stolen aid money.

I shall ignore any replies from you as I can’t take you seriously I’m afraid.

Hamas was established as a political party and stood n the elections in Gaza. It was elected and has moderated its stance on the two state solution issuing a statement in 2017 saying that if Israel cooperated and implemented the UN resolution withdrawing to the 1967 borders it would accept that.

Of course there are still hard liners who say they will destroy Israel. Just as there are Israelis who would destroy all Palestinians.

Supporting Palestinians is not supporting Hamas it is supporting a people who no matter where they live, Gaza, the West Bank or elsewhere have been driven from their homes, persecuted, raped, killed and imprisoned and are now being subjected to genocide.
The UK have supplied Israel with weapons that are being used in that genocide. You may be happy with that but many are not
www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/06/uk-government-faces-legal-challenge-over-arms-exports-to-israel
From CAAT
Israel is using UK arms exports in a genocide against the Palestinian people. The UK government is complicit in these crimes not just by supplying these weapons for decades, but by repeatedly inciting Israel to commit war crimes against Palestinian civilians with impunity, in retaliation for Hamas’ horrific killings and abductions of Israelis including civilians

Who are CAAT.🤓?
Whoever they are they’re spouting claptrap.

Oreo - CAAT is the campaign against the arms trade.

tickingbird and GrannyGravy, Im not entering into ‘debate’ with posters who are unable to look at this awful situation without demanding posters who don’t share their views, explain what good prayers are supposed to do, or agree that Islamophobia has increased as well as anti semitism. But- I wanted to acknowledge and thank you for your posts

Oreo

Who are CAAT.🤓?
Whoever they are they’re spouting claptrap.

The Campaign Against Arms Trade caat.org.uk/challenges/the-arms-trade/human-rights-abuses/
The UK supplies arms to Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the UAE. As well as arming Israel. Spot any conflict of interests?
Of course the countries the arms are sold to are not the people who are suffering when they are used.
That's countries like the Yemen and Gaza.

Iam64

Oreo - CAAT is the campaign against the arms trade.

tickingbird and GrannyGravy, Im not entering into ‘debate’ with posters who are unable to look at this awful situation without demanding posters who don’t share their views, explain what good prayers are supposed to do, or agree that Islamophobia has increased as well as anti semitism. But- I wanted to acknowledge and thank you for your posts

Of course islamaphobia and anti-semitism has increased, so has anti-christian feeling in Israel. The effect of war is to polarise opinions.
Opposing the genocide in Gaza has nothing to do with any of those issues. It is simply supporting an oppressed people whatever religion they may be.

The way I see this is that because America so strongly supports Israel we are being strongly encouraged to give Israel the same sort of uncritical support. I don't think we need to do this and I don't think that some of the demonising of support for Palestinian is healthy.
Marches for peace were being framed as "hate marches" , there was false concern about an imminent attack on the cenotaph , all to encourage us ignore or mistrust the truth of what was happening in Gaza.
Surely we can feel concern for the ordinary people trying to live their lives while a small group of men on each side of the conflict want to destroy each other's country.
Surely the response to pictures of children being taken to hospital should be compassion and not suspicion .

The Palestinians killed when a refugee camp (you know, one of the ones they’ve been sent to for their own safety) the other day were described as ‘collateral damage’ …

War is brutal, always has been, always will be.

The deaths of innocents is heartbreaking.

I wonder why the Qatari administration is not handing over the multimillionaire head honchos of Hamas so they can be put on trial for war crimes.

GG13. There is no logic to certain posts. Total waste of time.

Iam64. Don’t even try as it’s futile to engage with some. Not just on this issue but many others.

tickingbird

*GG13*. There is no logic to certain posts. Total waste of time.

Iam64. Don’t even try as it’s futile to engage with some. Not just on this issue but many others.

We are a military family, many generations.

Perhaps that is why I see things differently?

GrannyGravy13

tickingbird

GG13. There is no logic to certain posts. Total waste of time.

Iam64. Don’t even try as it’s futile to engage with some. Not just on this issue but many others.

We are a military family, many generations.

Perhaps that is why I see things differently?

Well obviously. Although how even a military family can see the slaughter in Gaza as justifiable I don't know.
Even war has some rules.
These are often not observed by terrorists but surely governments should be expected to observe them. If not why bother having them?

This is not war.

I wonder why the Qatari administration is not handing over the multimillionaire head honchos of Hamas so they can be put on trial for war crimes
I have no idea, you could write and ask your MP and mention we supply arms to Qatar as well..

Fleurpepper

This is not war.

Not sure Hamas has got your memo Fleurpepper as they continue to avow that their aim is to destroy every Jew on the planet…

Glorianny

^I wonder why the Qatari administration is not handing over the multimillionaire head honchos of Hamas so they can be put on trial for war crimes^
I have no idea, you could write and ask your MP and mention we supply arms to Qatar as well..

We can all write to our MP’s and pray to our God of choice, but it is out of our hands.

Glorianny are you advocating that Countries should not have weaponry to defend themselves?

Are you against sending arms to Ukraine?

Were you against the U.K./UN fighting with U.K. manufactured weapons in the Balkans?

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny are you advocating that Countries should not have weaponry to defend themselves?

Are you against sending arms to Ukraine?

Were you against the U.K./UN fighting with U.K. manufactured weapons in the Balkans?

I think limited arms manufacture and trade will always be necessary. But we should carefully monitor who and what we supply to anyone. This is in fact accepted UK policy and has been for some time. Unfortunately successive governments have abandoned that policy. If we discover that weapons are being used in unacceptable ways which are in breach of international law we should immediately revoke any arms licenses. If not we are complicit in any war crime.

Trying to draw any parallels by introducing other conflicts into this discussion isn't really acceptable. The people of Gaza have no food or water, they are not fighting, they are only just surviving, and many are not even managing that.

GrannyGravy13

Fleurpepper

This is not war.

Not sure Hamas has got your memo Fleurpepper as they continue to avow that their aim is to destroy every Jew on the planet…

And Netanyahu and his followers and the IDF to avow that their aim is to destroy every Palestinian in Palestine and beyond.

This is not war because only one side is armed and is bombing the other into oblivion- even the parts they told the Palestinians to flee to to be safe.

The IDF is killing all, indiscriminately. This is not colateral damage, this is pue and simple ethnic cleansing, and now with one aim only. The rules of war are not being followed at all. As you are from a military family, you must know that.

Military rules are clear, and you should know that better than most.

IHL includes some absolute prohibitions. Attacks cannot target civilians at any time unless they are taking part in hostilities. Civilian infrastructure cannot be deliberately targeted unless it is being used for military purposes, for example to launch attacks or store weapons. Medical facilities have special protection and cannot be attacked unless they are being used to commit acts harmful to the enemy, and then only after a warning. Collective punishment (acts directed against a large population in retaliation for actions of some of its individuals) and attacks that make no attempt to distinguish between military and civilian targets are always prohibited. Torture, rape, starvation, and the taking of hostages are forbidden.

Beyond that, IHL includes a series of rules that limit permissible civilian casualties even when attacks are directed at military targets. The principle of proportionality forbids attacks when their likely incidental harm to civilians is excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated. The rule of precautions in attack requires that armed forces do everything feasible to minimise civilian casualties, including choosing the attack option that is likely to cause least incidental harm to civilians. Finally, leaders and commanders are obliged to respect and ensure respect for IHL in all circumstances.

The Israeli govt is clearly breaking the rules and acting illegally. Comparisons with other wars, repeating that Hamas committed vile atrocities and has declared an intention to "wipe Jews off the face of the earth", or finding other reasons does not and cannot make the actions of the IDF either legal or justifiable. Netanyahu is making little or no attempt to protect the lives of civilian Palestinians or bring the hostages home safely he is however, trying to protect his own political position and to do that he needs to keep the vile extremists in his government in power too. He is despicable and cares no more for his fellow israelis than Hamas does for the lives of Palestinians.

Our government is strangely silent on this Vintagewhine, and I can’t see us ever being able to speak about Human Rights on the world stage again. We’ve lost all credibility.

I am quite sure that many will refuse to watch this interview with a very experienced Israeli Journalist and writer. But he give a very accurate description of what is happening now. The massive dehumanisation and dehumanisation of Palestinians- and the almost total embargo on showing Israelis the reality of the bombing and civilian suffering. And of course, the illegal kidnapping of hostages, that has been going on way before 7/10. Every single day, without legal process, with torture, and with no charges, and kept in the worst possible conditions for months and years- totally illegally, children often.

youtu.be/LuSPFuHSopo?feature=shared