GN hasn't had much to say in the last few days, perhaps like me you have been holding your breath and hoping to see hostages being released and aid flowing into Gaza. I am not religious so I can't pray but I am hoping that this release of hostages continues and this breathing space gives an opportunity for a long term peace plan to evolve.
Thank you Fleurpepper. I think it is important to seek out as much information as possible, not only that which informs our pre formed opinions and prejudices, which of course we all have.
Farzanah
Our government is strangely silent on this Vintagewhine, and I can’t see us ever being able to speak about Human Rights on the world stage again. We’ve lost all credibility.
Oh for goodness sake! Every country in Europe and beyond makes and sells arms.Israel needs arms as much if not more than many other countries.They have been asked by the UK and the US and other European countries to be careful about using targeted approaches to killing hamas and keeping Palestinian deaths to a minimum.
Since hamas is the governing body in Gaza they declared war on Israel by their actions and war is what they’re getting now.
Oreo
Farzanah
Our government is strangely silent on this Vintagewhine, and I can’t see us ever being able to speak about Human Rights on the world stage again. We’ve lost all credibility.
Oh for goodness sake! Every country in Europe and beyond makes and sells arms.Israel needs arms as much if not more than many other countries.They have been asked by the UK and the US and other European countries to be careful about using targeted approaches to killing hamas and keeping Palestinian deaths to a minimum.
Since hamas is the governing body in Gaza they declared war on Israel by their actions and war is what they’re getting now.
In fact the UK is well down the list of countries selling arms, below USA, France, Russia, China, Italy and Germany.
Arms Sales 2022
Thank you Fleurpepper and others, for a bit of balance.
Oreo
Farzanah
Our government is strangely silent on this Vintagewhine, and I can’t see us ever being able to speak about Human Rights on the world stage again. We’ve lost all credibility.
Oh for goodness sake! Every country in Europe and beyond makes and sells arms.Israel needs arms as much if not more than many other countries.They have been asked by the UK and the US and other European countries to be careful about using targeted approaches to killing hamas and keeping Palestinian deaths to a minimum.
Since hamas is the governing body in Gaza they declared war on Israel by their actions and war is what they’re getting now.
War usually has two sides. There is only one side bombing the hell of the other now- even refugee camps where people were told to flee for safety. It is ethnic cleaning, genocide, nothing less now.
Thank goodness for countries like South Africa which has made an accusation of genocide at the UN court against Israel.
www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/south-africa-launches-case-at-top-un-court-accusing-israel-of-genocide-in-gaza
Why don't we have an ethical government?
Well it's obvious really isn't it. We choose instead to be an arms dealer.
Of the 48 countries listed as not recognising human rights we sell arms to 35 of them.
Ilovecheese
Thank you Fleurpepper and others, for a bit of balance.
Yes, thank you for posting this interview. There was so much to take away from it but I am thoroughly depressed now as there seems little hope for any long lasting peace and whilst the Palestinians are losing their lives, the Israelis are losing their humanity tbh I'm not sure which is the higher price.
Excellent article by Avi Schlaim setting current events in Gaza in their historical and political context and arguing that what is happening in Gaza constitutes ethnic cleansing:
“This is not a conflict between two equal sides but between an occupying power and a subjugated population. And there is absolutely no military solution to this conflict. Israel cannot have security without peace with its neighbours. A negotiated political compromise, as in Northern Ireland, is the only way forward.”
www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/world/israel/64132/all-that-remains?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=shared_link&fbclid=IwAR1d2N5gVxlKTDpy1Iy5cKUauMd_8j4xZJodnwEspQbrU8VrM-s-i1jtj2Q
War does not always have two 'equal' sides - but some semblance of strength on both sides, in many ways. There is only one side now, and civilians on the other. This is not a war.
Anniebach
Not denying but no sorrow
Please, could you clarify what you meant here?
Agree, the US has given Israel over 124 billion dollars over the years and has just passed a bill to give a further 14.5 billion dollars in military aid. It is ironic that the US supported the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, which enabled the Taliban to govern Afghanistan. They then spent $2.313 trillion trying to get rid of them and failed. I have a nasty feeling that this blind support of Israel will also have very serious consequences for the US and the rest of the world. The more I see and read of this incursion, the more convinced I become that this incursion has all the hallmarks of genocide rather than acceptable collateral damage in the cause of a legally conducted defence of Israel and it's citizens.
Yes, and 'they' will accuse you of antisemitism for saying so?
Someone asked earlier on 'is it not allowed to criticise Hamas?'
and the answer is that Hamas has been condemned totally by all here, every single one. And the following question is 'is it not allowed to criticise Netanyahu and the atrocities committed by the IDF? Without being accused of antisemitism'.
And no-one has replied to the other question I asked 'what is it called, when Jewish friends from Israel criticise Netanyahu and the IDF, and are called traitors and worse'. Double antisemitism- self antisemitism?
Fleurpepper probably but that is just name calling done mainly out of ignorance and partly because "they" whoever "they" are can't find a better way of defending their position. tbh that doesn't bother me. What does bother me is the dehumanisation of a whole population to the extent that the mass killing of women and children is seen as acceptable collateral. I wish people would just listen to the first 5 minutes of the video you posted! The other comment that resonated with me was that you need to understand what is happening in Gaza/Israel in context or there is no reality (paraphrasing here and not certain I've really got the full sense of it) but basically this situation didn't result from the events of 7/10, that was the catalyst but not the cause. I have made it very clear in every post that nothing justifies the attack on 7/10 but nothing justifies the present slaughter of women and children in Gaza either, both are wrong and both demonstrate the effect of dehumanisation.
Very good post foxie48 which sums up the situation as I see it too.
With ref to Fleurpepper about some Jewish people criticising Netanyahu & IDF.
Robert Peston on X this am.
As a Jew I have become increasingly worried that the charge of antisemitism is being levelled to silence legitimate and important debate.^^Antisemitism is on the rise, but there is also a rise in unscrupulous use of the term to silence reasonable questions about the Israeli government’s actions in Gaza.
foxie My uncle served in the British armed forces during and just after the second world war. He always predicted that WW3 would begin in the Holy Land - where three religions call Jerusalem their holy city, and peace ought to be a priority.
As Glorianny said, “Saying something is retribution is simply recognising the cause and effect process and the origins of actions. It is not justifying them.”
The Middle East has been a crossroads for travellers and migrants of many cultures and faiths since before recorded history, and the scene in many cultures of recorded battles, aggression and retributions. This was the case before Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt. The battles did not cease with their arrival in Canaaan, they are recorded in the Old Testament. Retribution is nothing new, and is not confined to either Israelis or Palestinians. Finding the beginning and “who started it” is impossible.
A UN page www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/ has a brief description of their involvement at that time. It is very short and worth reading.
Why does the UN not insist on a ceasefire, follow that up with a plan to secure a SAFE home for Palestinians to match that which they secured for the Jews after the Holocaust, and then ensure that the terms of the settlement are kept by everyone? Is it because they are aware that any resolution on this subject will be ignored unless more force (ie fire-power) is applied than either of the combatants can use in retaliation against the peacekeeping force? If that is the reason, how on earth can the world prevent either WW3 breaking out as blocs try to support one another, or one group being allowed to overpower another, smaller, weaker one?
Elegran The US as one of the permanent members of the UN Security Council is currently using it's vote to block a resolution demanding a ceasefire. This recent resolution was watered down to stop the US vetoing it but has left Israel free to continue it's incursion into Gaza. The UK is not much better as it tends to stay in step with the US. tbh I doubt that Israel would stop the bombing even if the UN did pass an appropriate resolution. The only thing IMO that might stop Israel would be a withdrawal of support by the US and I cannot see that happening.
My uncle served in the British armed forces during and just after the second world war. He always predicted that WW3 would begin in the Holy Land - where three religions call Jerusalem their holy city, and peace ought to be a priority
Elegran this is something that DH has always said too each time there has been a conflict there.
I hope and pray (yes pray, as I am sure many are doing to their God) that there will be a resolution soon before this escalates.
The Houtis (sp) in Yemen are firing missiles at ships in the Red Sea, fortunately the USA Navy is shooting most of them down.
Israel have repeatedly said they will stop the current incursion when Hamas releases all the hostages.
Hamas have said they will release the hostages when Israel withdraw.
It is absolutely dreadful for all civilians in the region, I hope I am wrong but i cannot see a solution being reached anytime soon.
The Uk wasn't always as toothless.
From my link - "In November 1947, the UN General Assembly passed a resolution partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab, with Jerusalem under a UN administration. The Arab world rejected the plan, arguing that it was unfair and violated the UN Charter. Jewish militias launched attacks against Palestinian villages, forcing thousands to flee. The situation escalated into a full-blown war in 1948, with the end of the British Mandate and the departure of British forces, the declaration of independence of the State of Israel and the entry of neighbouring Arab armies. The newly established Israeli forces launched a major offensive. The result of the war was the permanent displacement of more than half of the Palestinian population."
What was the US position when this resolution was passed? What has happened in the US since then to change their stance? Is it an effect of 9/11 ?
It is also potentially dreadful for the whole world, GrannyGravy13 One at a time, many countries could be drawn in, in support of their allies, and retribution against atackers.
^Elegran*
It is also potentially dreadful for the whole world, GrannyGravy13 One at a time, many countries could be drawn in, in support of their allies, and retribution against atackers
There’s that word retribution again. It’s revenge. Calling it by another name doesn’t alter anything.
We can pontificate all we like on here but nothing will change. I hope WW3 doesn’t break out but you don’t need to be any kind of seer or prophet to foretell that this region is, and always has been, a powder keg and sooner or later it’s going to go off in a big way.
GG3
"We have set two goals for the war: to eliminate Hamas by destroying its military and governing capabilities and to do everything possible to bring our hostages at home," announced Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, as Israel expanded its ground operations in Gaza.7 Nov 2023
The first goal of this incursion has always been to destroy Hamas not the safe return of the hostages. Hamas know this and for this reason will hold onto the hostages as long as they are being bombed. It is their only bargaining tool. fwiw I am not in any way defending this position, just telling it as I see it.
tickingbird
^Elegran*
It is also potentially dreadful for the whole world, GrannyGravy13 One at a time, many countries could be drawn in, in support of their allies, and retribution against atackers
There’s that word retribution again. It’s revenge. Calling it by another name doesn’t alter anything.
We can pontificate all we like on here but nothing will change. I hope WW3 doesn’t break out but you don’t need to be any kind of seer or prophet to foretell that this region is, and always has been, a powder keg and sooner or later it’s going to go off in a big way.
I wasn't altering anything, I was using the correct name for a reprisal against someone who has attacked someone else. I have also pointed out above that in any year in that region of the Middle East, someone has been attacking someone else in retribution/reprisal for a previous attack on them for the last five thousand years or so.
The name of the original invader or attacker is lost in the mists of rehistory - maybe it was one of the children or grandchildren of Adam and Eve, bitter about the expulsion of their ancestors from the Garden of Eden and so carrying out guerrilla attacks against those they assumed were inhabiting the supposed location of that perfect place? Maybe it was another tribe, expanding beyond their original pastures and encroaching on land that others believed was for their use only?
Who started it and who is responsible for the latest eruption is less important at the moment than two aims - how it can be stopped from escalating into global warfare and how there can be an equable settlement made that is fair to all. without that there will never be an end.
In my post of 12:54:29 I said "The Uk wasn't always as toothless." It should of course have been "The UNwasn't always as toothless."
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