So pleased to see hostages being released.

Good post Namsnanny.
Do you suppose any other Gransnetter has done a tour of Israeli prisons or police stations either? Somehow I think not. We have every reason to believe, or at least listen to, Philippa. She lives there, it’s her country.

maddyone

Good post Namsnanny.
Do you suppose any other Gransnetter has done a tour of Israeli prisons or police stations either? Somehow I think not. We have every reason to believe, or at least listen to, Philippa. She lives there, it’s her country.

Do you suppose any other Gransnetter has done a tour of Israeli prisons or police stations either?

Oh, I wouldn't be at all surprised, maddyone!

Callistemon

GrannyGravy13

SKY is reporting that Israel (IDF) have killed the deputy leader of Hamas Saleh al-Arouri in Beirut.

And now Hezbollah saying that this is a violation of Lebanon and there will be reprisals.
Philippa, I hope you can be somewhere safe; I will be thinking of you.

Callistemon21

maddyone

Good post Namsnanny.
Do you suppose any other Gransnetter has done a tour of Israeli prisons or police stations either? Somehow I think not. We have every reason to believe, or at least listen to, Philippa. She lives there, it’s her country.

Do you suppose any other Gransnetter has done a tour of Israeli prisons or police stations either?

Oh, I wouldn't be at all surprised, maddyone!

Of course they haven't!

That's why I wrote that I didn't know rather than rejecting what Philippa wrote, which contradicts reports from Haaretz and Amnesty International among others. I ignored obviously pro-Palestinian sites and posts.

The IDF and Mossad have been caught out posting "fake news" - as has Hamas. I'm at the stage where I don't believe much.

Anniebach

growstuff your defence of Germany in 1939 is frightening

And your accusation is ludicrous!

You appear to be imagining things.

maddyone

Anniebach

growstuff your defence of Germany in 1939 is frightening

I agree Annie.
Whitewashing history.
Berlin was flattened by the Allies in 1945.
Other cities the same. Dresden, Hamburg, and others. It’s easy to find photographs online.

But it wasn't the whole country. Until 1945, the east of Germany was hardly affected by the war. It was a totally different situation. After the war, the allies (especially the US) spent a fortune on restoring Germany's power. Additionally, after the war, it was recognised that the Nazis were the enemy, not a foreign power, which is why a de-nazification programme was introduced. Palestine is different because there have been generations of entrenched hatred of people who stole their land. Israeli action will radicalise yet more generations of young people.

PS. I find it quite amusing when people try to lecture me about Nazi Germany. I haven't tried to whitewash anything.

Many countries have very harsh prisons and unpleasant surroundings for prisoners. So ? I wouldn’t condemn Israel for this. It is a war situation, they have been attacked.

If your knowledge of WW2 is as good as you claim growstuff you will be fully aware that roughly 70% of larger cities in Germany were extensively bombed and reduced to rubble by the allies. To claim otherwise is disingenuous. With regard to what happened in the east of Germany, millions of people ran in front of the Russians to avoid being ‘liberated’ by them as they raped and stole all the way across Europe, not just in Germany, but in every country they ‘liberated.’ Their behaviour was bestial. People preferred to be liberated by the western allies but nonetheless the allies conducted a massive programme of re education to change the behaviour of the Nazis. Most civilians joined the Nazi Party because it was required and indeed supported the aims which cleared the country of Jews, and actually provided the average German with a job and plenty of food and goods. This only stopped during the last months of the war because by then, Germany was losing the war.
I’m surprised you make untrue claims in order to support your argument against the Israelis.

Thanks to those who reached out privately and asked me to continue posting on this topic.
Yes, I live here and am very aware of what is going on, the good, the bad and the ugly. I know a LOT of people who are involved first hand so I probably have more information than anyone reading HaAretz, Amnesty, the UK press or posts on social media.
Happy to share if people are interested.
I shared a lot already but a couple of things to reiterate.
The very fact that HaAretz (a very left wing newspaper) reports such things is a good thing and an example of the free press here! Noone has to support Netanyahu and can say whatever they want.
Israel does not want wars, ever.
Every single war has been declared by Arab armies or terror factions, and October 7th took this to a new level.
The war is against Hamas, a radical Islam terror organization that publicly declares its aim to eradicate Israel (and western civilization next, by the way), and to repeat the massacre. The war is NOT against Palestinian citizens. Sadly Hamas' strategy is to hide behind them. Countless examples of this.

On a personal note, my home town in the center of Israel is repeatedly under attack from rockets. This is a deliberate attempt to kill innocent people (no military targets here!) Last Thursday my grandchildren were caught by rocket fire as they left school. Did you hear about that? I guess it wasn't reported, right?
Luckily Israel invested in defense systems ("Iron Dome") which manage to shoot down most of the rockets. Without this you would have seen thousands killed in Israel, civilians. Hamas' rockets target towns: schools, hospitals, homes. I am not sure how much that is reported?
It is terrifying!
If only Hamas had invested the billions of aid they received to build up Gaza in infrastructure and the good of their citizens. Instead they build massive rocket stores, underground tunnels for their terror operations, and their leaders don't even live there... they are billionaires living the life of luxury in Qatar. Wonder where their money came from??
I am not a Netanyahu fan, and have a lot of criticism of his politics and especially his current coalition.
But in terms of Hamas vs. Israel, I am honestly surprised that people don't understand the difference between good and evil. Just look at Hamas' charter vs. Israel's declaration of independence. It's actually very clear.

Thank you for another informative post Philippa. I’m so pleased you decided to keep on posting because your experience is real but not acknowledged by all on here. I want to know the truth, not some sort of spin from the world’s press, who have decided that the way to go is to criticise Israel. Not do I have any interest in reading links put up here taken from Twitter or X as it is apparently now called. Your comments are much more readable and believable to me.

I think most posters on this thread make a distinction between Hamas and the Palestinian people and Netanyahu and his right wing coalition govt and Israeli citizens. tbh I don't recall anyone supporting Hamas, what has been a constant theme is the historical events in the region that have helped create a terrorist organisation like Hamas and the extent to which the violence and deaths of civilians will create more terrorists. I think we are all very aware of the disgusting acts carried out on 7/10 and no one has condoned them (as far as I can recall). What is being questioned is the response to those acts and how it will impact on the future of both Israel and Palestine and actually the whole world. What I would like you to respond to is why, if Hamas was seen as such a dangerous terrorist organistion did Netanyahu and the Likud party use it for their own purposes.

www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

"Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state."

P60 you say in your opening post that you haven't read all of the thread, I think you should.

Foxie that is a great question and I think the Israeli electorate will vote him out as soon as we can have elections!
The question always becomes What is the solution??????
Israel would like nothing more than to live in peace alongside its neighbors. The issue is that those neighbors only want Israel to cease to exist. That is the meaning of the "From the River to the Sea" chant.
So while I am pro-peace, anti Netanyahu etc (I worked in an organization supporting the fledgling Palestinian hi-tech industry through mentoring), I just don't see what else Israel can do now except dismantle Hamas.
Do you have other ideas?
I'm afraid that since 7/10 I am quite pessimistic

And because this thread was originally about the hostages:
We still have 133 hostages in Gaza, not all of them are alive sadly. Many are men in their 80s!! How are they surviving? At that age (even before!) we are dependent on regular medication. They do not get it, they do not get Red Cross visits, fresh air, exercise, decent foot (all things that terrorists held in Israeli prisons DO get).
To make clear how personal this is: my work colleague's grandaughter, Na'ama Levy, 19-years old, is still hostage in Gaza. You may have seen footage of her being dragged to Gaza on 7/10 with bloody trainer pants.
Imagine she was your grandchild....

Decent FOOD obviously! Typo

Na'ama - her mother on CNN
Her mother is my sister's GP.
Israel is like a village.
This is heartbreaking
edition.cnn.com/2023/12/20/middleeast/naama-levy-hamas-hostage-mother-demands-release-intl/index.html

I have seen that footage of Na’ama Levy Philippa. Unsurprisingly she looks terrified.
Also, I have said before, but will repeat, my Jewish friends do not support the Netanyahu government, but they do support the total disablement of Hamas. They are disgusted with the Red Cross and UN. I believe the Israeli government have repeatedly asked for the Red Cross to request access to the hostages so that their needs may be met, but the Red Cross are not doing this. A recently released hostage says she was held in a variety of places, sometimes in civilian flats where there were women and children living.

I have also seen the footage of her mother begging for her release.

maddyone

If your knowledge of WW2 is as good as you claim growstuff you will be fully aware that roughly 70% of larger cities in Germany were extensively bombed and reduced to rubble by the allies. To claim otherwise is disingenuous. With regard to what happened in the east of Germany, millions of people ran in front of the Russians to avoid being ‘liberated’ by them as they raped and stole all the way across Europe, not just in Germany, but in every country they ‘liberated.’ Their behaviour was bestial. People preferred to be liberated by the western allies but nonetheless the allies conducted a massive programme of re education to change the behaviour of the Nazis. Most civilians joined the Nazi Party because it was required and indeed supported the aims which cleared the country of Jews, and actually provided the average German with a job and plenty of food and goods. This only stopped during the last months of the war because by then, Germany was losing the war.
I’m surprised you make untrue claims in order to support your argument against the Israelis.

maddyone I really don't understand what point you're making. Of course I know about German history. My first degree was in German and my second in history, with a strong focus on 20th century German history. My father was a bomber pilot in the RAF. Although he wasn't involved in bombing Dresden, he bombed many other German cities. He wasn't proud of what he did and it affected him all his life.

I am working my way through all of the pages of this thread so I'll come on and comment when something strikes me as important to explain from my perspective as someone who lives here.
"Apartheid" is a ridiculous thing to say about Israel, hard to believe that South Africa is saying this!
I know what apartheid looks like and it is not here!
Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Israeli Jews or Christians. They vote in the elections, they sit on the Supreme Court, they are lawyers, doctors, nurses, pharmacists, teachers.
My little GD's kindergarten teacher is an Arab.
Arabs are hospital leaders.
Where do people get these CRAZY ideas about apartheid?
I am talking about Israel. Not Gaza. Gaza is NOT ISRAEL!!!!
BTW the Israeli Arabs are very positive about life inside Israel. They are a hundred times better off than Arabs outside of Israel.

The point growstuff is that you have claimed twice to my knowledge, that the allies did not reduce much of Germany to rubble. However, they did exactly that to the major cities. The countryside no, it was left pretty much intact, as far as was able, but not the cities. Since you studied this, you should know it to be true. You are trying to make the point that the Israelis are doing something/behaving more badly, than the allies did in WW2.

But the tunnels haven’t just been built by Hamas have they? They go back a long way and Israel, I believe, built some of them. This I just a small extract from the Wikipedia article about Gaza…
‘The blockade of the Gaza Strip has caused a shortage of certain basic products, especially construction materials, fuel, some consumer articles, and medicines and medical supplies.[8][9] Import restrictions, including of basic building materials, have led to the proliferation of tunnels under the border with Egypt.[10][11] As Israel limits the Palestinian freedom of movement, for most Gazans the tunnels are the only way to move from and to Gaza’.

Please do keep explaining Philippa because it needs saying over and over. I have also been disgusted by some of the claims on here, including the one about apartheid.

Palestinians are routinely held in Israeli prisons without charge or trial . Please read the Amnesty international report on what has happened to them in all the territories controlled by Isreal

MyBee70, please don't be naive. The main issue is that Israel needs to try and prevent the entry of weapons (which it seemed it was not very successful doing!).
Have you seen pictures of Gaza from before Oct 7?
They had plenty of all the things you mention.
And they have a common border with Egypt, not just with Israel.
Note that Egypt places more restrictions on their Arab "brothers" in Gaza than Israel does. Why? Because they know exactly who the Hamas is and what they are trying to do!