So pleased to see hostages being released.

nanna8

Many countries have very harsh prisons and unpleasant surroundings for prisoners. So ? I wouldn’t condemn Israel for this. It is a war situation, they have been attacked.

The kidnapping, without charge, and the awful treatment in 'prisons' of Palestinians, including children, has been going on for many many years. Way, way before October.

Growstuff, my previous neighbour was an RAF bomber and took part in the Dresden bombings. He was seriously affected all his life. The brainwashing especially- calling all civilians Gerry.

Imagine she was your grandchild?

Yes, unbearable to think about. I have a very stunning granddaughter aged 15 who looks like an 18 year old. Just unbearable to think about.

But how can anyone find it unbearable to think about this young Israeli girl- and yet find it totally acceptable that other girls her age are also subjected to all sorts, spat on, dehumanised, and bombed out of her home. And her brothers and sisters. You say IDF soldiers do not do such things- well, of course you and others in Israel will not be told. But there are so many reports of such behaviours from Palestinians. They can't film of course, can't take photos, can't report even.

And that is the one thing, probably more than any other- why are some lives worth our empathy, and some just 'colateral damage' in some sort of 'just' war. There is only one answer possible here.

You really think Israel are the “good guys”?

It’s not that difficult. Nothing, absolutely nothing, that happened on October 7 could ever justify the barbaric massacre of nearly 30,000 Palestinians (mainly women and children), the complete obliteration of Gaza’s infrastructure, homes and neighbourhoods, or plans to push 2 million Palestinians out of Gaza.

Philippa60

Foxie that is a great question and I think the Israeli electorate will vote him out as soon as we can have elections!
The question always becomes What is the solution??????
Israel would like nothing more than to live in peace alongside its neighbors. The issue is that those neighbors only want Israel to cease to exist. That is the meaning of the "From the River to the Sea" chant.
So while I am pro-peace, anti Netanyahu etc (I worked in an organization supporting the fledgling Palestinian hi-tech industry through mentoring), I just don't see what else Israel can do now except dismantle Hamas.
Do you have other ideas?
I'm afraid that since 7/10 I am quite pessimistic

Thanks for your reply and I'm fairly confident that Netanyahu will be voted out once this incursion is over, unfortunately that gives him a very good reason for prolonging it for as long as possible. What you didn't address was the reason Netanyahu allowed Hamas to build it's strength in Gaza and also why he failed to adequately protect those Kibbutzim nearest to Gaza. Obviously he took a divide and rule approach to the Palestinians, as long as Fatah and Hamas were at odds then the prospect of a two state solution was less likely. I think he moved IDF troops to the West Bank to satisfy people like Smotrich, there were plans to build thousands more illegal Jewish homes and IDF troops have been used to protect illegal settlers, also those Israelis living near to Gaza were more likely to be left leaning voters, so unimportant to a far right govt. I'd be interested to hear your views on this, particularly whether you are supportive of the illegal settlers in the West Bank.

What is sad is that the Israelis that were attacked were the ones that were building bridges with their Palestinian neighbours. Netanyahu let them down very badly by dropping his guard. He knows that he will be ousted once the war is over. His leadership was under threat before all this happened.

foxie48, as I said, I am on the opposite side of the political field to BN and definitely to his far right colleagues!
Israel has repeatedly tried to disengage from the West Bank and return most of it but there has never been a willing partner to agree to this (the "2 state solution"). All Palestinians repeatedly refuse any deal.
Re Gaza, Israel withdrew fully in 2005 leaving a flourishing area and a year later Hamas took power and turned it into a terror state with the one aim of destroying Israel.
The West Bank also has Hamas factions. I don't think you'll find many Israelis post 7/10 who would consider a similar unilateral withdrawal.
I don't live in that disputed area. I live in a quiet town in the centre. Why is Hamas shooting rockets at my GC's school?
Why did BN allow this to happen? That's my question too. I guess like most of us we believed that Hamas would never do something like this, and they'd see the economic logic in being relatively peaceful towards Israel. Ha! More fool us.

* Philippa60 * I think what many of us who are not Israeli find difficult to understand is why there has been increased illegal settlement in the West Bank if Israeli's are in favour of a two state solution. Surely the more Israelis who make their home on the West Bank, the more difficult a two state solution becomes. There were many stumbling blocks in trying to implement the Oslo Accord but I think it's fair to say that getting agreement over Israel's withdrawal from territory captured in the 6 days war was particularly problematic eg Syria and the Golan Heights. Illegal expansion into Palestinian land on the West Bank means there are 500K Israelis living illegally there, this does not look like an Israel looking for a peaceful two state solution.

Foxie48 you are right. We (on the left of the Israeli political map) are very much against this, but the right, not just the extreme right, believe that the West Bank is also biblical Israel and that they have a right to live there.
It is indeed going to be hard to separate now.
But the bigger issue now (post 7/10) is the complete lack of trust of all Israelis, in other words after experiencing the Hamas' massacre, how can we withdraw military control (as we did in Gaza)? Won't that just allow the terror groups to carry out another massacre, including on my home here in the centre of Israel?
If we believed that there was a genuine partner for peace and that the Palestinians wanted to live alongside us, that would be a great start.
Failing that I am afraid it's stalemate

Philippa60 Than you for being so open and honest. Sadly I think the complete lack of trust felt by your community will be more than matched by the hate and despair of the Gazans. Israel's problems will be so much greater if it loses the support of the US, not only on the political stage but also in terms of military force. Israel needs friends and it is currently making enemies. I can understand the anger of the Israeli people towards those who committed the atrocities of 7/10 but Netanyahu and the right wingers at his side need to be defeated by those of you who recognise that you have been led into a conflict that will continue to reverberate for decades unless it is scaled back. This is exactly what Hamas wanted, an end to the Abraham Accords, Israel increasingly isolated and a situation where a two state solution is impossible to imagine and without a real desire for peace, a willingness to negotiate and a change of govt that stops the illegal settlement in the West Bank, frankly Hamas will have a stategic win. Peace to you and your family, I'm just an old woman with a roof over my head and the time to pontificate over other people's problems but I sincerely hope that there will come a time when you and your people can live peacefully with the Palestinian people. Shalom aleichem (I hope this is correct).

Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
How on earth can Israel be accused of genocide?
The only people Israel wants to destroy are Hamas terrorists.
Not innocent Gazan or other Palestinians.
On the contrary, the IDF is going out of its way, endangering its soldiers, to avoid harming civilians.
The ratio of innocent civilians to Hamas killed in this event is lower that in any other war. Every one is a tragedy though.
So re. genocide: this is yet another slogan argued by people who get their information from I don't know where.
Facts:
The population of the Palestinians has INCREASED massively over the years, not reduced. So by definition that is NOT genocide.
Also: please don't quote numbers from Hamas as if they are fact. At least 8,000 of their dead are Hamas, not civilians but if you listen to them, there are no Hamas terrorists killed and all their dead are civilians.
Civilians shooting rockets are not civilians, sorry!

And another point: all Jews in Arab countries (Syria, Iraq, Iran) were expelled.
THAT is ethnic cleansing.

Sorry but it's very frustrating when people spout nonsense instead of checking the facts

Thank you, foxie48, I agree with your points above!
Much appreciate the kind words

Fleurpepper

nanna8

Many countries have very harsh prisons and unpleasant surroundings for prisoners. So ? I wouldn’t condemn Israel for this. It is a war situation, they have been attacked.

The kidnapping, without charge, and the awful treatment in 'prisons' of Palestinians, including children, has been going on for many many years. Way, way before October.

Growstuff, my previous neighbour was an RAF bomber and took part in the Dresden bombings. He was seriously affected all his life. The brainwashing especially- calling all civilians Gerry.

One man's opinion, which you have quoted previously.

Many posters on here had fathers (and mothers too) who were in the services in WW2.

If we are relating anecdotes then many of us will know plenty, including those from German friends who were no supporters of Hitler lived through WW2 and who welcomed British liberation.

Many posters on here had fathers (and mothers too) who were in the services in WW2.

Yes, I realise that but a poster seemed to think I didn't realise that German cities were bombed.

Not referring to you growstuff!
(Again)

Even if 8000 of the dead were Hamas that leaves 20,000 who were not. I wonder how many children is it acceptable to kill in order to destroy Hamas? Presumably if you think killing innocents is ok you set some sort of limit.
What has population growth to do with the genocide? Are you saying if there were less Palestinians Israel wouldn’t have killed so many?
Genocide is to do not only with deliberate killing which is happening but also with the deliberate removal of people from their homes, and denying them the staples of life like food, water and medicine. Far more will die because of the conditions they have been forced into .

All these OTT words being chucked around like genocide and apartheid ( SA how do you have the cheek to use that last word?!)
Not to mention all the oblique anti-Semitic feelings getting an airing.
Good to see Israel targeting and killing with a precise drone attack some of the top hamas bas….s.
It will take a long time yet but hamas will soon wish they hadn’t unleashed hell on innocent Israelis on 7th Oct.

Interesting interview on Radio4 PM programme with a man from Gaza and his mother who is still there. The press do seem to have started to give a less one sided view of the conflict.

…… not to mention the oblique anti semitic feelings getting an airing . Exactly

Thanks Phillippa60 and foxie for your posts.

Thanks foxie48 for your measured reply to Philippa60 and to Philippa for you perspective from Israel.

I echo thanks to both Philippa and foxie for their measured views and assessments of the current situation.

Sadly there are oblique anti semitic feelings getting an airing on here too. Yes.

My father fought in the liberation of Belgium and Germany at the end of WW2. I have heard many stories about his experiences during that time. No one poster knows everything about that time and what our servicemen and women experienced, but it is probably true to say that all were affected in some way. My father suffered nightmares for years after he had left the army. My mother told me he used to cry and scream in the night. I don’t remember this, I was too young. War is terrible, but sometimes it is the only solution. It was the only solution during WW2 because the safety of our country was at risk and the occupied countries needed to be liberated. In Israel the situation is very different, but I understand why Israel is determined to clear out Hamas. We all know Hamas hide amongst the civilian population and underneath the civilian buildings. We all know that Hamas care not one jot for their innocents but use them as propaganda. We also all know that the IDF target precisely and try to limit civilian deaths. The entire situation is horrendous. None of it need have happened. 7/10 was the catalyst.

growstuff

*Many posters on here had fathers (and mothers too) who were in the services in WW2.*

Yes, I realise that but a poster seemed to think I didn't realise that German cities were bombed.

The answer then growstuff is that you don’t claim that the allies didn’t flatten German cities during WW2. They did, and you know they did. You are claiming they didn’t (twice) because to do so supports your argument against the Israelis. You know this as well as I do.

It’s a legitimate question to ask how many innocent Palestinians is Israel entitled to kill in order to destroy Hamas ? Which won’t happen anyway. You can’t destroy ideas by killing people .

Perhaps Hamas can help answer that question Glorianny?
As they have the power to change the situation.

maddyone

growstuff

Many posters on here had fathers (and mothers too) who were in the services in WW2.

Yes, I realise that but a poster seemed to think I didn't realise that German cities were bombed.

The answer then growstuff is that you don’t claim that the allies didn’t flatten German cities during WW2. They did, and you know they did. You are claiming they didn’t (twice) because to do so supports your argument against the Israelis. You know this as well as I do.

No, I did not!! I really don't follow your logic or misinterpretations of what I've written. This discussion is becoming ridiculous.

After the war the allies did not leave Germany flattened……

Quote:
growstuff
at 02/01/24
at 17.53

This is what I’ve referred to. I will not discuss this any further because the evidence is there.