So pleased to see hostages being released.

So what do you see as a solution Namsnanny?

Would you keep the current boundaries? Have Israeli-occupied Gaza and West Bank? Incorporate the whole area into Israel and have Arab (and Christian) minorities? Or do what Ben Gvir, Smotrich, Hotovely (and other right-wingers), which is the expulsion of Palestinians.

I am hopeful that in the next elections there will be a more moderate / central government, without the right wing extremists.
Again the problem is that post 7/10, the right wing people are saying to people like me, "You see, we told you they (the Palestinians) can't be trusted.. we withdraw and this is what we get in return."
I honestly don't know any more
I just want peace!

growstuff

So what do you see as a solution Namsnanny?

Would you keep the current boundaries? Have Israeli-occupied Gaza and West Bank? Incorporate the whole area into Israel and have Arab (and Christian) minorities? Or do what Ben Gvir, Smotrich, Hotovely (and other right-wingers), which is the expulsion of Palestinians.

I would NOT have the hubris to suggest that I had enough knowledge to advocate any one of the narrow range of solutions you have suggested.

Particularly as I would NOT be suffering the consequences of my actions.

My sons will not be injured or die
in this war. My home isnt in danger.

Therefore I'm only concerned with giving my support to a democratic country trying to find some sort of a solution that suits them.
Whatever that turns out to be.

Now, (just in case you think my answer is shirking the issue), if I was living in Israel I would want peace as quickly as possible, but definitely not at any price.

I wonder what you think would happen if Israel lost, or gave up this fight tomorrow?
Would less Palistinians be indoctrinated?
Would the Palistinian people have a new comfortable existence under Hamas?
Would Jewish people be integrated into the new populous?
Camps set up to house them?
What would Iranian backed terrorists do elsewhere in world?

There are no hard and fast solutions, just strategies that buy time and interludes of strained peace.

It wasn’t a proper withdrawal because Israel still has control over Gaza in terms of what goods etc come in and who goes out. There are checkpoints for anyone who wants or needs to leave Gaza .
Israel have control over the seas too with strict rules about how far Gazan fishermen can go out to catch fish. If they go further out where fish are they risk being shot at by overhead drones. Saw a documentary with Simon Reeves on this only recently.
So would question their independence because they can go nowhere or leave Gaza for any reason without permission from Israel.

nanna8

Do you live in Israel, growstuff? Just wondering.

Obviously, she/he doesn’t live there, yet strangely thinks he/she knows everything there is to know about the situation there.

Namsnanny great answer from you there.

Oreo

nanna8

Do you live in Israel, growstuff? Just wondering.

Obviously, she/he doesn’t live there, yet strangely thinks he/she knows everything there is to know about the situation there.

No, she doesn't! (And has never claimed any such thing.)

Namsnanny applauding your answer 15,25 today

Philippa60

I am honestly interested in the opinion of those who think Israel is in the wrong: what would you suggest the IDF does differently in the battle to remove Hamas?
Or are you suggesting Israel allow Hamas to remain?
7/10 was a watershed moment for everyone in Israel, even the left-leaning, peace activists like me. Once that organization has shown us what their intentions are, AND what they can actually do, and they've promised to do it again and again how can Israel NOT fight them till the end?
Yes the idea will remain. But the terror capabilities can't.
That's the lesson of 7/10.
The best military advisors say Israel is doing all it can to minimize civilian deaths. I seriously question the numbers coming out of Hamas but yes there are tragic casualties.
Please do tell me what you'd recommend Israel do differently - I'd love to know.

There wasn’t anything that Israel could have done differently so doubt there will be any answers, at least any sensible ones.

Maybe when a new thread is started it could be entitled ‘So sad to see hostages are not being released.’

Namsnanny

It's highly unlikely that Israel will lose the short-term military fight.

However, I will answer your questions to the best of my ability.

1 I think what has already happened will survive in Palestinian folklore for many more generations. What happens over the next few years will undoubtedly harden anti-Jewish attitudes.
2 No, the Palestinians won't have any comfortable existence under any government. Incidentally, Hamas doesn't rule the West Bank, but it's being attacked and settled.
3 Why would Jewish people need to be integrated into the populace of Gaza and the West Bank. They don't live there now.
4 There wouldn't be a need for camps for Israelis, but there's going to be a need for new camps for Palestinians whose homes have been destroyed.
5 I'm sure Iranian-backed terrorists could find somewhere to cause trouble. They could concentrate on Yemen or Lebanon.

Any more questions?

Am sure what happened to innocent Israelis on 7/10 will survive in folklore for more than a few generations too.

Oreo, absolutely true. 7/10 has changed everything. Israel post the massacre is a changed country. Sadder, less confident, much more worried about our future.
I think for most of us the main issue before all others is getting the hostages back, it's been 90 days now and I just don't know how / if they are surviving in that hell-hole with no conditions for life

Namsnanny what do you think would happen if Hamas gave up the fight and surrendered?

If BOTH Hamas and Netanyahu stop fighting one another simultaneously and submit to arbitration, there would be a chance of a solution being reached that didn't involve one lot annihilating the other.

Or rather, of one lot annihilating enough of the other to leave only a far smaller remnant - the descendants of those who had left in the years since WW2, those who were living or working abroad or had married foreigners and set up home there, those who had left the country early enough before the current confrontation destroyed exit routes, those children who had been sent abroad by their parents to safety at the start of current hostilities.

It is impossible to completely destroy every single person. There are always some left to nurture resentment at their loss and respond at a future date. The seeds will grow and show fruit in time.

I do not readily post my views because I am aware that my knowledge is limited and tainted by pre formed ideas and prejudice.
However I think it is important to seek out as much information as possible from every angle, and I found another article from the NYTimes very informative and balanced, and worth a look. What is happening to our World by Thomas Friedman. 29/12/23
I am impressed by many posters sharing their own thoughts and information on this terrible and complex situation so respectfully.

Elegran ''It is impossible to completely destroy every single person. There are always some left to nurture resentment at their loss and respond at a future date. The seeds will grow and show fruit in time.''

this is why Jewish friends from Israel are really afraid that Netanyahu and IDF, their indiscriminate bombing, the dehumanisation and humiliation, the 1000s of kidnapped without charge young men and children- who just disappear, or are shot- means that even if they manage to kill Hamas one by one- there will be many non-Hamas left with such pain, terror and loss left, who will never forgive what is happening. And they have friends all over the world, ready to help.

The balance of power in the world is changing- and very few country do support Netanyahu. The USA and UK so far- and even then, they are slowly turning away. The vast majority of the world is in utter condemnation of what is going on, and what has been going on for a long time- way before october 7th.

But all Palestinians are not Hamas.The women and children who have been killed were not responsible for the atrocities. If Israel will not change the terms of discussion about the release of hostages how can anyone stop the destruction. Negotiation is just that. Why wouldn’t Israel accept the release of older people?
Life worth living- given the conditions in Gaza that is really insensitive

Glorianny

But all Palestinians are not Hamas.The women and children who have been killed were not responsible for the atrocities. If Israel will not change the terms of discussion about the release of hostages how can anyone stop the destruction. Negotiation is just that. Why wouldn’t Israel accept the release of older people?
Life worth living- given the conditions in Gaza that is really insensitive

Equally, the brutally murdered Israelis and those taken as hostages are not responsible for what is happening now.

It was a provocative and well-planned atrocity by Hamas.

Callistemon21

Glorianny

But all Palestinians are not Hamas.The women and children who have been killed were not responsible for the atrocities. If Israel will not change the terms of discussion about the release of hostages how can anyone stop the destruction. Negotiation is just that. Why wouldn’t Israel accept the release of older people?
Life worth living- given the conditions in Gaza that is really insensitive

Equally, the brutally murdered Israelis and those taken as hostages are not responsible for what is happening now.

It was a provocative and well-planned atrocity by Hamas.

You are both correct. Hamas was aware of what would happen after their attack on 7/10 and Israel's govt acted exactly as they would have predicted. Let's be honest about this, neither Hamas or this Israeli government want peace and the innocent people of Israel and Palestine are paying the price.

Callistemon21

Glorianny

But all Palestinians are not Hamas.The women and children who have been killed were not responsible for the atrocities. If Israel will not change the terms of discussion about the release of hostages how can anyone stop the destruction. Negotiation is just that. Why wouldn’t Israel accept the release of older people?
Life worth living- given the conditions in Gaza that is really insensitive

Equally, the brutally murdered Israelis and those taken as hostages are not responsible for what is happening now.

It was a provocative and well-planned atrocity by Hamas.

Of course, but the majority of Palestinians are not responsible for this, but they are paying the massive price.

Many in Israel say that there were many warnings about this, and that Netanyahu and IDF had every possible means to stop it- and didn't. Some go much further, and say he allowed it to happen- as it would then give him the excuse for what is happening now. Drones, satelites and every piece of quipment to destroy Hamas on their way to the kibbutz. So why didn't they. Total incompetence, or ... worse?

But the world is watching- very few support Israel, and those who do, mainly USA and UK, are beginning to turn away. But the rest of thw world is with Palestine and Palestinians- and as said, even if every member of Hamas is killed (and they won't as the key ones are very far away)- every single bomb is sowing the seeds of hatred and revenge.

Not taking anything at all from the terrible events on October 7, and that Hamas is classed as a terrorist organisation, there have also been reports that some of those killed on October 7 were killed by Israeli fire.
Also there are reports of some of the tunnels under Gaza were actually built by Israel.
There seems to be evidence of oil off the coast of Gaza and the Israelis looking at an alternative to the Suez Canal.
The Israeli ambassador to the UK has said the whole land belongs to Israel, ‘from the river to the sea’. Mentioned in Israeli election manifestos.
I am not saying what may be true, but interesting to look outside the box.

foxie48

Thanks, you understood what I was saying 🙂

It is what I keep reiterating.
As in any conflicts, it is always the innocents who suffer.

susytish

Not taking anything at all from the terrible events on October 7, and that Hamas is classed as a terrorist organisation, there have also been reports that some of those killed on October 7 were killed by Israeli fire.
Also there are reports of some of the tunnels under Gaza were actually built by Israel.
There seems to be evidence of oil off the coast of Gaza and the Israelis looking at an alternative to the Suez Canal.
The Israeli ambassador to the UK has said the whole land belongs to Israel, ‘from the river to the sea’. Mentioned in Israeli election manifestos.
I am not saying what may be true, but interesting to look outside the box.

On the news tonight, about tons of shipments now choosing to avoid the Suez Canal, and go the old route via the Cape. Considering that South Africa has accused Israel of Apartheid and genocide- and are very clearly siding with Palestine- this could become a difficult, as well as very long and expensive route too. So perhaps accusations made by many re the Ben Gurion project, were not so far fetched at all.

The Met are investigating Israel for war crimes

Just sharing here because the word "genocide" has been mentioned in relation to Israel...
thehill-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/thehill.com/opinion/international/4388533-israel-is-not-committing-genocide-but-hamas-is/amp/