6 Day Doctors Strike

ronib

foxie48 in 2008 the BMA voted against increasing medical school places and against the building of new teaching universities. How is the BMA not accountable for the mess we’re in?

Difficult to see how a vote taken 16 years ago and only carried by a small majority can be blamed for the current situation.
The government caps medical student numbers, but has lifted the cap when it suited them commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9735/#:~:text=The%20UK%20Government%20has%20said,quality%20placements%20for%20each%20student.%E2%80%9D

Glorianny yes it is very difficult to understand - can anyone explain? The BMA does not want/is unable to/ burden its members with the task of training up too many student doctors. Is this true?

How about the numbers are capped at the level the BMA has previously agreed? That’s logical from one point of view but not from another.

ronib

Glorianny yes it is very difficult to understand - can anyone explain? The BMA does not want/is unable to/ burden its members with the task of training up too many student doctors. Is this true?

That isn't. exactly what happened. The BMA gave a vote to their members. The result was very close 52% to 48% One point of view was that there wouldn't be enough vacancies for all medical students to obtain jobs and opening new training places would simply make that worse.
Nothing to do with the task of training student doctors but with ensuring they are employed when they leave university.
Let's remember in 2008 there was a Labour government supporting and funding the NHS. The BMA couldn't forsee the Tory devastation which would follow.
www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748

Glorianny it seems the BMA could not calculate the rise in population numbers, the aging population and the need not to have a backlog approaching 7 plus million. Tough on the end users.

I have seen reports that consultants were reluctant to increase their work load to train more students but can’t remember where it was reported.

Gransnet discussed this about a year ago when MaizieD started the discussion.

ronib

Glorianny it seems the BMA could not calculate the rise in population numbers, the aging population and the need not to have a backlog approaching 7 plus million. Tough on the end users.

Those are not the only factors though are they? Nearly 5000 doctors left the UK in 2022, possibly not something the BMA imagined would happen when the NHS was being properly supported. Another 4000 are Europeans who chose not to come to the UK after Brexit.

I am sure that Europeans are being replaced by other people who for some reason do choose to work here? Probably data to show current trends.

Possibly but blaming the BMA because they didn't anticipate under paid doctors leaving the UK and others refusing to come here really isn't supportable. As I said they voted when the NHS was properly funded and supported by the government before the Tories started destroying it.

I can’t follow your logic. I don’t have the need to attribute blame but isn’t it about time this country had access to decent healthcare?
Why are you supporting a professional body which is out to harm people?
Doctors here are not particularly underpaid. I believe it’s working conditions which doctors dislike. However my retired consultant friends were on 90 hours initially when they started out about 50 years ago.

I don’t have the need to attribute blame

Blaming the BMA for the current shortfall in doctors is not attributing blame, ronib?

ronib

I can’t follow your logic. I don’t have the need to attribute blame but isn’t it about time this country had access to decent healthcare?
Why are you supporting a professional body which is out to harm people?
Doctors here are not particularly underpaid. I believe it’s working conditions which doctors dislike. However my retired consultant friends were on 90 hours initially when they started out about 50 years ago.

Why is the BMA "out to harm people" That's completely illogical and biased. They voted in 2008 for conditions as they were then. You are now criticising them after 15 years of underfunding. As for the doctors' salaries

Doctors in their second year typically earn between £43,000-£49,000 according to health job website Messly, which is £9,000-£15,000 more than doctors in their second year of work in England.

This recent job posting shows Australia recruiting consultants at a yearly rate of $357,930- $456,008 Australian dollars. This is equivalent to between £190,000 and £243,000 a year.

Some consultant job posts offer up to $8,000 (about £4,250) in addition to pay to cover international applicants’ flight and relocation costs.

Since 2003, consultants in England have been on a contract that now pays between £88,364 and £119,113 a year

Meanwhile in Ireland, the new consultant pay scale starts at the equivalent of around £185,000, rising to £223,000.
www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-uk-doctors-are-going-abroad-and-how-does-pay-compare
So your assertion that doctors are not underpaid is manifestly untrue.
Why are you blaming a professional body's democratic decision taken 15 years ago for a doctor's strike now. When it is obvious that this government is causing the real harm?

I don’t want to play games as I am feeling quite ill. However it is very clear that the NHS is not a free agent and is manacled to a trade union in the shape of the BMA.
The BMA has chosen to demand 35 percent pay rise etc etc and to hold key strikes in winter at the time of greatest demand on the NHS.
The BMA is also in dispute over whether striking doctors can be made to return to work early.
Where is the voice of the patient in all this?
I don’t think that doctors in Italy or Greece are magnificently paid but at least these countries have some semblance of a health system.
The Reform Party has an idea of offering vouchers to patients to use in the private sector if waiting for treatment is unreasonably long. Probably healthcare care abroad should be offered too but it might be tricky getting there.

I say again where is the voice of the patient?

Drowned out by the chants of the strikers.

ronib

I don’t want to play games as I am feeling quite ill. However it is very clear that the NHS is not a free agent and is manacled to a trade union in the shape of the BMA.
The BMA has chosen to demand 35 percent pay rise etc etc and to hold key strikes in winter at the time of greatest demand on the NHS.
The BMA is also in dispute over whether striking doctors can be made to return to work early.
Where is the voice of the patient in all this?
I don’t think that doctors in Italy or Greece are magnificently paid but at least these countries have some semblance of a health system.
The Reform Party has an idea of offering vouchers to patients to use in the private sector if waiting for treatment is unreasonably long. Probably healthcare care abroad should be offered too but it might be tricky getting there.

I say again where is the voice of the patient?

I wonder why you consider having properly paid doctors is against the patient's interests? I want doctors who earn more than shelf stackers or dog walkers, who are properly paid for the work they do.
Doctors in Italy actually work between the public and private sector at all levels.
In Greece
The average doctor gross salary in Greece is 90.923 € or an equivalent hourly rate of 44 €. In addition, they earn an average bonus of 3.746 €. Salary estimates based on salary survey data collected directly from employers and anonymous employees in Greece. An entry level doctor (1-3 years of experience) earns an average salary of 61.226 €. On the other end, a senior level doctor (8+ years of experience) earns an average salary of 117.289
OMG The Reform Party!!! Heaven forbid!
If you are really interested patient participation is actively encouraged www.england.nhs.uk/aac/what-we-do/patient-and-public-involvement/#:~:text=We%20work%20with%20patients%2C%20people,diverse%20perspectives%20into%20our%20work.&text=Working%20with%20our%20patient%20partners,public%20involvement%20strategy%202021%2D2026.

The BMA is the doctors trade union ronib. It represents the interests of doctors, just as all TUs represent their members. Not all doctors are members of the BMA. The BMA is not an unreasonable organisation, it does however have excellent negotiators working on behalf of its members. This government has failed consistently to recognise, understand the dynamics of, or work constructively with trade unions. The fault doesn’t lie with the BMA.

Glorianny seems to me that after tax, young doctors in Greece are being paid at the level of other young professionals there.
So in reality young graduates in a lot of the life sciences and year 1 and 2 doctors are paid about the same in the UK. Although research scientists and academics need extensive training too and the pay can be meagre. They are not throwing their toys out of the pram and I think it’s time to put patients first.

Casdon we must agree to disagree.

ronib

Glorianny seems to me that after tax, young doctors in Greece are being paid at the level of other young professionals there.
So in reality young graduates in a lot of the life sciences and year 1 and 2 doctors are paid about the same in the UK. Although research scientists and academics need extensive training too and the pay can be meagre. They are not throwing their toys out of the pram and I think it’s time to put patients first.

Research scientists do excellent work. But they are not on call and they do not take responsibility for huge number of patients as doctors do particularly on national holidays. The pay they receive is comparable to doctors, the responsibilities are not.
If you don't understand that doctors are putting patients first by asking for decent pay which will ensure doctor retention and provide a proper health service, then you simply don't. It doesn't mean you are right. Why on earth do you think people want to be doctors in the first place?

I certainly don’t agree that the doctors are putting patients first by demanding this pay rise - quite the opposite. They don’t give a stuff.

Ronib wrote ^ However my retired consultant friends were on 90 hours initially when they started out about 50 years ago.^

If I should be stricken down with an illness, I don’t want to be treated by an exhausted doctor in their 91st hour of work. I want someone fresh and alert who isn’t trying to stay awake.

Glorianny you do realise that people are dying at a rate of knots? There’s something called excess deaths which my husband talks about from time to time.
I tried to ignore it but feeling decidedly under the weather today.
How about I focus on the patients and you worry about the medics?
From observation I don’t think that pay is the only reason for doctors resigning from the profession especially where young mothers are concerned.
I think doctors themselves need to ask why they wanted to be doctors. I can’t second guess why. I think some female aspiring doctors seem highly motivated to make a high income and talk about aspirations to drive a BMW in one example. The reality probably doesn’t live up to the dream. Maybe university admissions need to be more probing about what applicants expect from medicine?

SueDonim both my friends were extremely brilliant in their roles. Their argument was that there’s so much to know about the human body that they were able to see examples of conditions that today’s students won’t have experienced as they are exposed to half. My friends also say that they appreciated the opportunity to study in this way when they were young enough to take the hours. One of them had the highest marks in his original country when he graduated.

ronib

Glorianny you do realise that people are dying at a rate of knots? There’s something called excess deaths which my husband talks about from time to time.
I tried to ignore it but feeling decidedly under the weather today.
How about I focus on the patients and you worry about the medics?
From observation I don’t think that pay is the only reason for doctors resigning from the profession especially where young mothers are concerned.
I think doctors themselves need to ask why they wanted to be doctors. I can’t second guess why. I think some female aspiring doctors seem highly motivated to make a high income and talk about aspirations to drive a BMW in one example. The reality probably doesn’t live up to the dream. Maybe university admissions need to be more probing about what applicants expect from medicine?

Golly I don't know where to start. The idea that medics are somehow ignoring patients is totally unfounded. Excess deaths are not the result of the doctor's strike. I suggest you compare the number of excess deaths during covid in the UK with the number in Ireland. Doctors were working extraordinary hours, we stood and clapped for them. The deaths were due to the NHS being massively neglected by this government.

As for the comments about female doctors. There is still a huge pay gap between women doctors and male doctors. Men still dominate the highest levels and are paid more. Only 12% of consultant surgeons are women. But apparently they are motivated by high income.

"The reality doesn't live up to the dream"-well that's probably true as women are reporting being assaulted by male doctors when in training www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66775015

Trying to blame doctors because they are asking for decent pay and reasonable working hours is insupportable. Patients are suffering because the NHS is massively underfunded and this government has no commitment to a publicly funded service. That's why patients are dying.