Fascism in Germany

Jews have been persecuted for centuries and certainly not always for being “rich” They were exceedingly hard working traders historically, but there was no reason at all to persecute then, unless of course, religious zealots feel they’re responsible for killing Jesus?

I don't think that we, in the 21st C, appreciate how deeply important religion has been in the past. In England, the enmity between Anglicans, Non Conformists and Roman Catholics persisted for centuries. A real, deep enmity which applied in practically all walks of life and led to non Anglicans being excluded by law from all areas of public life., including, for R. Catholics, university education right up to the middle of the 19thC.

Jews were indeed hated by Christians because they were 'responsible' for the death of Christ (despite this being utterly illogical) with a strength of feeling that we just cannot comprehend these days. They were also resented because they were good at making money...but then, what else was open for them to do?

Germany wasn't the only country over the years which attempted to exterminate Jews, it's just that Hitler had the power to do it more comprehensively than others had in the past.

The rise of the far right in Europe is scary. Hungary has had a far right government for 10 years Poland is similar. This shows a map of where far right parties are and the percentage of votes. www.statista.com/chart/6852/seats-held-by-far-right-parties-in-europe/

Cossy

Jews have been persecuted for centuries and certainly not always for being “rich” They were exceedingly hard working traders historically, but there was no reason at all to persecute then, unless of course, religious zealots feel they’re responsible for killing Jesus?

Migrants have been around since the year dot. Sad to see, yet again, some OPs referring to them as “illegals” and blaming the rise of the far right solely on them!

Moslems, as a general rule, are peace living, especially those who’ve settle here in the UK. I’ve worked with Muslim men and women and found them to be hard working, open, honest people. Before you leap on me yes their Bible has some pretty radical ideas. Anyone read the Old Testament lately.

We too lived in Germany way back in the day as my Dad was based in Düsseldorf for a while. I had a really lovely German Au Pair when my children were little, she is now married with her own children back in Germany and an English Teacher. We are still in touch after all these years.

The difference being, the majority of Christians in this country try do not take the Old Testament as a moral code to live by. Unlike Muslims who live by the exact words of their book.

Freya5

Cossy

Jews have been persecuted for centuries and certainly not always for being “rich” They were exceedingly hard working traders historically, but there was no reason at all to persecute then, unless of course, religious zealots feel they’re responsible for killing Jesus?

Migrants have been around since the year dot. Sad to see, yet again, some OPs referring to them as “illegals” and blaming the rise of the far right solely on them!

Moslems, as a general rule, are peace living, especially those who’ve settle here in the UK. I’ve worked with Muslim men and women and found them to be hard working, open, honest people. Before you leap on me yes their Bible has some pretty radical ideas. Anyone read the Old Testament lately.

We too lived in Germany way back in the day as my Dad was based in Düsseldorf for a while. I had a really lovely German Au Pair when my children were little, she is now married with her own children back in Germany and an English Teacher. We are still in touch after all these years.

The difference being, the majority of Christians in this country try do not take the Old Testament as a moral code to live by. Unlike Muslims who live by the exact words of their book.

With respect Freya5 your comment shows how little you understand with regard to Islam. There are many different sects within Islam eg Sunni, Shia, Whabbi, Salafi, Berelvi, Sufi and Deobandi and although they all take the Quran as their central text, their beliefs and practices vary, just as Christianity has different beliefs and practices despite taking the Bible as the central text. I think you will find that many of the different customs eg the requirement for women to cover their hair, will be subject to cultural norms rather than required as religious observance.

foxie48

Freya5

Cossy

Jews have been persecuted for centuries and certainly not always for being “rich” They were exceedingly hard working traders historically, but there was no reason at all to persecute then, unless of course, religious zealots feel they’re responsible for killing Jesus?

Migrants have been around since the year dot. Sad to see, yet again, some OPs referring to them as “illegals” and blaming the rise of the far right solely on them!

Moslems, as a general rule, are peace living, especially those who’ve settle here in the UK. I’ve worked with Muslim men and women and found them to be hard working, open, honest people. Before you leap on me yes their Bible has some pretty radical ideas. Anyone read the Old Testament lately.

We too lived in Germany way back in the day as my Dad was based in Düsseldorf for a while. I had a really lovely German Au Pair when my children were little, she is now married with her own children back in Germany and an English Teacher. We are still in touch after all these years.

The difference being, the majority of Christians in this country try do not take the Old Testament as a moral code to live by. Unlike Muslims who live by the exact words of their book.

With respect Freya5 your comment shows how little you understand with regard to Islam. There are many different sects within Islam eg Sunni, Shia, Whabbi, Salafi, Berelvi, Sufi and Deobandi and although they all take the Quran as their central text, their beliefs and practices vary, just as Christianity has different beliefs and practices despite taking the Bible as the central text. I think you will find that many of the different customs eg the requirement for women to cover their hair, will be subject to cultural norms rather than required as religious observance.

We should remember as well that until Spain became a Christian country, when it was Andalous and ruled over by Muslims, Jews lived peacefully and were accepted. It was the Christians who began torturing them and forcing them to convert, flee or die.
And orthodox Jewish women cover their hair once they are married, they wear a wig, not a hijab. It's not just a Muslim custom.

foxie48

Freya5

Cossy

Jews have been persecuted for centuries and certainly not always for being “rich” They were exceedingly hard working traders historically, but there was no reason at all to persecute then, unless of course, religious zealots feel they’re responsible for killing Jesus?

Migrants have been around since the year dot. Sad to see, yet again, some OPs referring to them as “illegals” and blaming the rise of the far right solely on them!

Moslems, as a general rule, are peace living, especially those who’ve settle here in the UK. I’ve worked with Muslim men and women and found them to be hard working, open, honest people. Before you leap on me yes their Bible has some pretty radical ideas. Anyone read the Old Testament lately.

We too lived in Germany way back in the day as my Dad was based in Düsseldorf for a while. I had a really lovely German Au Pair when my children were little, she is now married with her own children back in Germany and an English Teacher. We are still in touch after all these years.

The difference being, the majority of Christians in this country try do not take the Old Testament as a moral code to live by. Unlike Muslims who live by the exact words of their book.

With respect Freya5 your comment shows how little you understand with regard to Islam. There are many different sects within Islam eg Sunni, Shia, Whabbi, Salafi, Berelvi, Sufi and Deobandi and although they all take the Quran as their central text, their beliefs and practices vary, just as Christianity has different beliefs and practices despite taking the Bible as the central text. I think you will find that many of the different customs eg the requirement for women to cover their hair, will be subject to cultural norms rather than required as religious observance.

With respect, I don't really want to understand much about Islam. My nephew, a convert, only because his in laws wouldn't let their daughter marry him if not, a type of bullying I feel, was drinking beer at a party, when I queried this,he was adamant that Koran said alcohol wasn't banned. I do understand that face covering, should be banned here, as in France, is cultural, not a religious requirement, and never seen before the Afghan hijackings. I worked with many Muslim Dr's, lovely people, non of whom pushed their religion in any ones face, that's what I care about.

It’s on the rise again all over the world. It never really goes away - these factions still operate under the radar, under different party names, keeping very low profiles.

All they wait for is an opening to seize their moment. Trump has given them license to be active - in turn for their loyalty. They’re pretty bold and (and could be) violent in nature. They want total power.

The question is - what and who is America? Will the populace elect an aging, grieving for retribution, emotionally unstable thief, rapist and mob boss?

Think HARD if you want to surrender your rights, before you pull that lever or drop that paper ballot in.

This may be coming to your neighborhood.
USA Gundy

Then Freya5, perhaps it is unwise to make statements like the following.
"The difference being, the majority of Christians in this country try do not take the Old Testament as a moral code to live by. Unlike Muslims who live by the exact words of their book."

I thought the wall coming down was a mistake. I have Jewish heritage so have always had a cold spot where Germany is concerned. I used to know an old chap who came here from Germany in his 20s. He hated going back- for family occasions- because of the blatant fascism everywhere he went which he found sickening. Trump is the worst kind of fascist and he’ll be the president again ! So depressing .

I’ve enjoyed many happy visits to Germany but I’m not Jewish. My Jewish friends have declared they will never set foot in Germany.

foxie48

Then Freya5, perhaps it is unwise to make statements like the following.
"The difference being, the majority of Christians in this country try do not take the Old Testament as a moral code to live by. Unlike Muslims who live by the exact words of their book."

Well that is how it looks to me. I'm quite entitled to my view. How dare you say I'm not.

Many Christians live by the New Testament and follow it very closely. Jesus was a Jew and many Jewish people embraced and are still embracing Christianity. The Old Testament predicts the coming of Jesus, it is referenced throughout. Ishmael was a son of Abraham as well as Isaac and the conflicts in the Middle East were all predicted long ago. Too much and off the point to go into now but it is all in the OT.

Freya5

foxie48

Then Freya5, perhaps it is unwise to make statements like the following.
"The difference being, the majority of Christians in this country try do not take the Old Testament as a moral code to live by. Unlike Muslims who live by the exact words of their book."

Well that is how it looks to me. I'm quite entitled to my view. How dare you say I'm not.

Of course you are entitled to your view, just as I am entitled to correct it when it is based on uninformed stereotypes.

I have never hidden my antipathy to strict Islam. I have no objection to modern Muslim people who accept and enjoy our liberal way of life. As a very old feminist I object to men who do not treat women as equals. I dislike the hijab because it is a sign of inequality to me. In fact I object to ANY faith where women are second class citizens . My objection is to people who want to live in a Western world then insisting that they can act in illiberal ways, I think many local and national politicians do not care. Otherwise, why aren’t all the men involved in child sexual abuse in parts of the UK not holding these awful men to account? Read Maggie Oliver’s book about this awful crime. Then there is the teacher still in hiding because he dared to show his class an image of Mohammed .In London more than one school has been threatened because political symbols on uniforms are not permitted. I can never accept any faith in our modern world which denies sexual freedom to Gays. How can any feminist not criticise ANY faith which acts like we are still living in the ancient ways. I admire any Muslim who is strong enough to come to Britain and accept our way of life. It is not always easy for then but how can any feminist support the subjugation of women? I am not some right wing bigot but I am a fierce feminist. I cannot stand women being treated unequally. That is my objection to parts of the Islamic faith. Other faiths also have some pernicious rules affecting women but I regard Islam as having the worst rules for females. I am a feminist and always will be.

I do feel that, at base, the far right have very little use for those in society who they count as non productive and a burden on society, whereas the left has concern for the powerless and disadvantaged

Would you perhaps wonder if this pulling in opposite directions inflames the tensions MaizieD? Those on the right feel annoyed whilst those on the left ‘do good’ which in turn exacerbates the situation?

I read once that wars are unavoidable as we don’t always get on with our own families and there is kinship and some actual love there! What chance nations who don’t ’love’ one another?

Religion has always been used to subjugate women, it's not just Islam and most of the practices that we abhor are cultural not religious. However, because these practices are wrapped up in a misrepresentation of a text taken from the Quran, Bible or Torah etc they are seen as "religious" rather than, for what they actually are, ie misogyny and social control. Take the Hindu custom of Sati, what purpose did it serve other than to relieve a Widow's family of the burden of looking after her?It was absolutely nothing to do with the Hindu faith but it was a very convenient means of getting rid of someone who would not contribute to the family under the guise of religious observance.

Extreme religious practices are all about control.

Christianity subjugated women, too. Probably still does. We've only very recently escaped from much of the repression.

MaizieD

Christianity subjugated women, too. Probably still does. We've only very recently escaped from much of the repression.

God created women and man in his own image and likeness, he made them equal

Jesus taught women and men alongside each other as equals.

I think you will find that it has been the patriarchy of the Church which has subjugated women, not the religion itself.

Maddy just a reply about your friends who won’t go to Germany. It’s their right of. course but many thousands of Jews live peacefully in Germany and thousands of Jews live in Berlin with 8 synagogues in that city alone.
Germany, unlike some of it’s allies, has and does still accept its guilt.
I don’t know if you have been to Berlin but right in the centre of Berlin by the Brandenburg gate is one massive monument in particular which must be the size of 4 or 5 football pitches with a huge museum attached. It was intensely moving.
There are many monuments and other Holocaust museums which tell the horror without trying to hide from their guilt. There are handmade stones on pavements outside houses which are engraved with the names of the families who had lived in the streets as a memorial.
Germans in general seem to like us very much which might surprise your friends and could perhaps bring a sort of ‘peace’ in a strange way but of course I understand if they don’t.
War is a terrible thing. It is trauma for millions who are mostly innocent but lose so much and what is going on in our world today risks the peace of us all.

I don't think you can separate a 'religion' from its adherents' interpretation of its sacred text, GG13. That is, after all, the only source of their beliefs and practices.

But all I intended was to point out to the christianity professing Islam detractors that their own religion has its flaws.

Reported in The Times yesterday, "Anti EU populists poised to dominate in European elections" Conclusion, a combination of "popular anger at net zero measures which many find unaffordable and uncontrolled migration are the main drivers of voter revolt"

Farmers in the Netherlands who have been forced to sell up have been protesting for a while. With all the talk of doomsday scenarios the people who we are really going to need will be farmers. German farmers of late have also, very peacefully joined the fray.

Always a worrying facet about the far right is their desire to look towards foreign/non Aryan scapegoats, it really occurred to me when watching the film, Oppenheimer, all those talented physicists and scientists, so many of them Jewish, and that idiot of a man and his followers would have had them exterminated if any had remained in Germany. Amongst the asylum seekers and immigrants will no doubt be similar talents and with that in mind it's an unhappy scenario to see the re-emergence of the far right, particularly in Germany given its history, but one wonders did it ever go away.

There is a dichotomy between those who espouse a blanket hatred for aliens/outsiders and the collective guilt that is no doubt felt amongst the majority of the decent German population, probably best exemplified by Angela Merkel's decision to give a safe haven to beleaguered Syrians and Afghans for example. However it has to be said, amongst the innocent people fleeing to place of safety there, are always bad apples, it isn't discriminatory to say so, every nation/ethnicity will encompass the very best and the very worst of humanity and everything in between. It doesn't help when governments seek to fudge very real problems in the interests of so called cohesion, for example all those women that were accosted in Cologne and other ongoing issues around the sexual misbehaviour of a minority of new arrivals. People on the ground aren't stupid they know what's going on, and possibly more than ever now. We are all aware of how grooming scandals took hold in our towns and a conspiracy of suppresion from people at the highest level, again in the spurious interests of social cohesion and not inflaming indigenous discontent. Lack of transparency in such affairs, denial about increasing gang warfare, criminal activities that have been exported from abroad are incendiaries for the far right and they are going to run with that. It's blatantly obvious that all of these issues need to be addressed, without demonising whole communities. Fudging wrong doings by authorities for whatever reason will increase simmering discontents especially when the people at the sharp end point it out to an elite who live in communities cushioned from the lived experience of others. Unfortunately turning to an unsavoury political force is a by product of being ignored.

Good post TerriBull

Excellent post TerriBull 👍

TerriBull, that is a great post. I get very worked up about feminism and how some grans criticise the way the Michaela school is run. I know ALL
religious groups have discriminated against women but we hsve wonderful
communities of Hind, Sikh and other faiths who fit in in UK society. It seems it is always Muslims complaining about something that does not suit a noisy minority. If Christians emigrated to
a Muslim country do you think you would be able to ask them to change school hours or demand other customs? It just id not done. Those of you in Australia will recall the term “whinging poms” The Australians made it quite clear that if you did not likr Australian ways then you could leave!
It seemed reasonable to me. Fit in or go back to England. I developed an Aussie accent and learned to fit in. You can practice your faith without disrupting your work. No Muslim surgeon would halt a long operation in order to pray! All i ask is to treat all women as equals



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