Conscription

Doodledog

I certainly wasn't envisaging a compulsory 4 day week for over 70's! Good grief. In wartime, maybe it would be necessary, but I do think people need to put their feet up at some point, after decades of work.

But if everyone (who is able to) gave up even half a day, a lot could be achieved to make the country a better place. People working full-time would be exempt, but there could be compulsory schemes for employers to allow staff days off - a bit like for being a magistrate, or if they are in the TA. My children both work for employers who operate volunteer schemes, but I think they are only once or twice a year. My daughter always opts to work for the Dogs' Trust, and my son cleans up an area of the beach near where he lives. They get exercise (as do the dogs!) they meet new people from other companies in the schemes, and their work is for good causes. There is no remuneration and they make up lost work time afterwards, but their salaries are paid, so both they and their (different) employers contribute in their own ways. It will be tax deductible for the employers too, I assume.

I don't (personally) see looking after one's own family as community service though, unless there are extenuating circumstances. We all do that, along with running our homes and so on.

But if everyone (who is able to) gave up even half a day, a lot could be achieved to make the country a better place...

I can see the point you are trying to make. I thought about it earlier because I don't like to be a mean-spirited-bah-humbug sort of person. This is purely anecdotal, but - in my circle of friends and acquaintances, I believe that all but one or two are doing some kind of voluntary work anyway... ranging from commercially-useful things like helping to run and man the local tourist office (and the town's museum); keeping the town clean and tidy (quite literally, with brooms and garbage gathering); purchasing and planting and tending blooms to fill the town's planters that the council can no longer afford to do - essential in a 'tourist-town'; transporting children in groups to events; ferrying elderly people to appointments, etc - the man opposite me now in his 80s has been doing it for years though might have to give up soon on health grounds. I can't remember all that everyone is doing, but there is a general hive of charitable, community work that these retirees are doing. Obviously, there are younger working people volunteering also, at weekends.

I don't believe that these people, in their 70s and 80s are unique to my area.

I contribute financially because I'm caring full-time for my disabled partner and am partially disabled myself - my volunteering days are now over.

So, to some extent we are already doing our bit - even though it is only local, but keeping towns and villages functioning and commercially viable is the small part that benefits the whole, ultimately.

I don't (personally) see looking after one's own family as community service though, unless there are extenuating circumstances. We all do that, along with running our homes and so on.

Of course. Looking after elderly parents is what we all do (or did), but I'm not really talking about the social care... running errands, doing a bit of cleaning, ferrying them around, etc. I meant more those who are caring for very elderly parents who have continuing and urgent medical needs and who, in truth, probably need full-time care but can't (for one reason or another) or won't go into a care-home. I've known someone in that position, trying to juggle a full-time job whilst caring for an elderly parent who in truth was not really safe being left alone for any extended period of time. It's utterly exhausting and draining. Anyone who's spent a few years doing that kind of care really doesn't need any extra work tacked on to their retirement date.

Again, I know what you mean, Maisie, but at the same time we live in a society where a lot is provided. Welfare and public services are in decline, but we have education, healthcare, police, defence and things like roads, libraries and civil infrastructure on tap.

I didn't connect productivity with taxpaying, or I don't think I did. All the same, the things described above are paid for because most people are productive, at least for a while, and it is mostly earnings that are taxed. Yes, we all pay purchase taxes, but they are paid out of recycled earned income - ie money that has been earned, taxed and given to whomever is spending it (if they haven't earned it themselves). It's not 'new money' and it's not there as a result of someone having produced goods or provided a service to earn it - the goods and services will also benefit society, on the whole.

If someone never works, they never pay in, but they still benefit from all the things bought from other people's efforts. We all look after our homes and families, (unless we have a full staff ) which is why I don't think that doing this is reason enough not to contribute to 'the system'.

We are lucky to live in a country where so much is provided, but as things are in decline to the point where working people are using food banks and many older people can't afford heating, maybe it is time to ask everyone to chip in? Not just by buying 'stuff', but by doing something practical that benefits people other than themselves and their family. That way there will be more to go round, and the country would be a better place to live.

I don't think that that POV has anything in common with the 'Kinder Kirche Kuche' ideal you seem to be invoking. One is about expecting a simple (and individually decided) contribution to society/community/whatever you want to call it, the other is about enforcing a lifestyle onto a whole sex.

Sorry - we cross-posted, Dickens.

What you describe is what I earlier called 'extenuating circumstances' - looking after a sick person, or all kinds of other things are very much 'doing your bit'.

As I say, I don't have a manifesto here - I don't even know if I would vote for community service if there were a referendum on the matter. I'm very much thinking aloud. My earlier post (above this) was in answer to Maisie, not to yours, which I hadn't read.

I agree that many people take on voluntary roles throughout their lives, and I think it would be good to let 'served time' count as such, so people could, say, be a Scout leader in their 30s and put their feet up at 70 (or 50 if they are lucky enough ), or whatever. The chances are that a lot of lifelong volunteers would want to carry on with no obligation, and they should be able to do so. But if someone is stuck on a grotty estate, with no money and no aspiration, wouldn't it be a good idea to have a means by which they can see what is available for them to do? Not 'workfare', as that just cuts wages and can be akin to slavery. Definitely not connected to benefits in any way, but something with no stigma, that everyone is expected to do at some point in their lives, in return for living in a 'civilised' society.

That probably sounds Pollyanna-like, and it's not. It's more based on 'from each according to ability:to each according to need', which seems to me a sensible way to run any sort of group situation, but which needs both sides of the equation to work.

Callistemon21

War

Or Defence?

Exactly.
I would like to think that we would defend our country with all it’s imperfections but all it’s freedoms should we be threatened.
My father didn’t wait to be called up in WW2, he joined up voluntarily at eighteen years old and fought on the front line at the end of the war. Many of your fathers did too, and I like to think that our younger members of society would do the same if we were threatened.
Someone said they hate the concept of war. I think we all do. We hate it and fear it. But I think we’d hate living under Putin even more.

Conscription to the voluntary sector of the 70 year olds!
I’ve never heard of such a barmy idea in my entire life!
I can’t even be bothered to discuss it because it’s so ridiculous!

I think the problem is that if war were declared and conscription came in it would be too late. The country is populated by the old, unfit and overweight, and many people see themselves as exceptions who deserve special treatment. Relying on most of us to defend the realm would be pointless. If the people in the know really think that an invasion is likely, we need to get toughened up PDQ or learn to speak Russian (or Chinese or North Korean).

My father was a child in WW2, but did military National Service, which he hated. He was stationed in Libya. As others have said, times were different, and whereas I agree that today's young people would step up in extremis, they are (rightly, IMO) far less biddable than in the past.

That may not be what's expected - talk of war seems to indicate terrorism or cyber attacks rather than an invasion - but again, a lot of people would struggle there, too. We are very dependent on the Internet, on digital finance and so on. If an attack froze our bank accounts, and we couldn't buy anything or order it in, what would we do? Or if an enemy took over all communications and we couldn't trust the radio, TV or any form of media yet they were the only way to get information? Who would we trust? Or if they polluted the water supply or cut off the gas?

Maybe some form of civil militia is a good idea, so that there are ready-made rallying points, and some sort of structure in place. It's nightmarish, isn't it?

maddyone

Conscription to the voluntary sector of the 70 year olds!
I’ve never heard of such a barmy idea in my entire life!
I can’t even be bothered to discuss it because it’s so ridiculous!

I don't know how seriously that was meant, maddie.

In Sweden they have something called Total Defence Service. It includes people between 16 and 70. It does not necessarily mean
military service. Some Swedes would be expected to look after the vulnerable, help with childcare, help with cooking. Not unlike what so many of us would do naturally in peacetime.

That's interesting Greta. In my area, we saw in the first days of the pandemic that volunteers did a sterling job helping others, which is just as well because the official response by the local authorities was woeful. Maybe there should be a strategy for prioritising what would be really needed during an invasion (just as is happening now in Gaza) and having ready made plans.

Doodledog

maddyone

Conscription to the voluntary sector of the 70 year olds!
I’ve never heard of such a barmy idea in my entire life!
I can’t even be bothered to discuss it because it’s so ridiculous!

I don't know how seriously that was meant, maddie.

I'm going to practise knitting socks.

Doodle dog. Most 70year olds I know already do many of the things you suggest without being conscripted.

GrannyRose15

Doodle dog. Most 70year olds I know already do many of the things you suggest without being conscripted.

I'm not advocating conscription for 70 year olds - that was someone different.

If there were to be conscription, those with track records could choose whether or not to get involved - it would only be those who have never contributed to society outside of their own homes and families who might be 'called up' in my hypothetical scenario.

There was a question about this on last night's Question Time, and the majority of the panel dismissed it out of hand, whilst agreeing that we are closer to war than for many years, and that the armed forces are currently underfunded.

Retired people on pensions do pay tax Oreo

National service is isn't a bad thing imo. 🤷.

There is compulsory national service in Denmark for all males aged over 18. It's between 4 and 12 months but can be postponed to allow for studies.
It can be community or military service.

My nephew did it and was in the military. Several of his contemporaries were sent to Iraq in the war. I seem to remember that he liked it.

One of the places I volunteer is a community shop & café. There are over 70 volunteers "on the books" all ages from 14 to 87.
The youngsters sometimes come as part of their Duke of Edinburgh challenge. The oldies like me like being part of the project and meeting people.

I find it hard to think of compulsory national service. I have a vivid and upsetting memory from the early 1950s when I was about 10. My mother was talking over the garden fence to our neighbour. The neighbour was crying because her son had just received his call up papers for national service. I can't bear to think that it could be a possibility for today's young people. It would certainly have to be a very different kind of service given the nature of warfare in today's world. I shall now disappear to bury my head in the sand...

Oh yes Lizzie. I can remember what a relief it was when it ended.
Early 1960s?
There's plenty of opposition in Denmark, some of it aimed at the gender imbalance. It's only males.

If volunteering was compulsory, it would feel like slavery.

It’s dreadful idea. I would never have volunteered to fight; I’d have been an objector. I have never understood the gung ho attitude that convinced whole towns and villages of young people to join up together and I do not think that it would happen in this day and age. And mandating people to join the forces instead of prison or community service etc… if you were a regular soldier etc would you really want your life in the hands of someone who really does not want to be there?

Don't spoil OUR Sunday talking about WAR.

Pensioners are assessable for tax in the same way as everyone else, and the State Pension counts as taxable income.
Even if one’s income is below the Income Tax threshold, we all pay VAT and duties in things like alcohol. And we’re all assessable for Capital Gains and Inheritance Tax.

If conscription were introduced it would further exacerbate staff shortages in the NHS and other public services as well as reduce apprentice, etc., recruitment in the private sector. Bad idea.

When we had National Service, it gave the young men something to fall back on, it gave them training and career possibilities - It was a mistake to abandon that.

Money is always found for war, but not for what the citizens of this country really need.

Hahaha! Have you looked out of your window recently?
A conscripted army? A shower of sh*te more like. I had a very good friend who was a Royal Marine, they don't make them like him anymore.
RIP Peter X

nanna8

I could just imagine an army of OAPs who don’t pay tax. I used to love Dad’s Army back in the day. I assume pensioners don’t have to pay tax of course.

Indeed? Well if pensioners don't pay tax in the UK they are very lucky.

We do in Denmark, and as far as I know most other countries as well.

If the war in Ukraine escalates into WW3 you can bet your bottom dollar conscription will be necessary everywhere. No country I can think of has a standing army, navy and airforce of the dimensions that will be necessary, to say nothing of services such as the Fire Brigade, Ambulance Service or Hospitals.

And every single country in Europe will have to get cracking on making munitions.