Boy, 4y, allowed to join CoE school as a girl.

Glorianny

Sorry you have weird Ideas about what is deceit.
It's confidentiality. It's a teacher's duty to a child who could be put at risk (and some of the posts on these threads show how much at risk). A teacher cannot legally share information about a child except with other professionals

Can you point us to the legislation that lays out what information cannot legally be shared, please?

All I can find is here, on the government website and there is no mention of keeping sex confidential.

Good data protection practices ensure that an organisation and the individuals within it can be trusted to collect, store and use our personal data fairly, safely and lawfully.

Personal data is information that relates to an identified or identifiable living individual.

In a school, examples of personal data include
identity details (for example, a name, title or role)
contact details (for example, an address or a telephone number)
information about pupil behaviour and attendance
assessment and exam results
staff recruitment information
staff contracts
staff development reviews
staff and pupil references

Special category data is personal data that’s considered more sensitive and given greater protection in law.

Special category data includes
racial or ethnic origin
political opinions
religious or philosophical beliefs
trade-union membership
genetic information
biometric information (for example, a fingerprint)
health matters (for example, medical information)
sexual matters or sexual orientation

In a school, it would be best practice to also treat as special category data any personal data about:

a safeguarding matter
pupils in receipt of pupil premium
pupils with special educational needs and disability (SEND)
children in need (CIN)
children looked after by a local authority (CLA)

That's all pretty comprehensive, but I can see nothing about the sex of a child being protected data.

Thanks for that very comprehensive post Doodledog.
There is of course also the issue of the child understanding the confidentiality and what this means.
E.g. not Willy waving when you’re claiming to be a girl.
Or had the parents convinced the child that all girls had the same equipment as him?

Doodledog

Glorianny

Sorry you have weird Ideas about what is deceit.
It's confidentiality. It's a teacher's duty to a child who could be put at risk (and some of the posts on these threads show how much at risk). A teacher cannot legally share information about a child except with other professionals

Can you point us to the legislation that lays out what information cannot legally be shared, please?

All I can find is here, on the government website and there is no mention of keeping sex confidential.

Good data protection practices ensure that an organisation and the individuals within it can be trusted to collect, store and use our personal data fairly, safely and lawfully.

Personal data is information that relates to an identified or identifiable living individual.

In a school, examples of personal data include
identity details (for example, a name, title or role)
contact details (for example, an address or a telephone number)
information about pupil behaviour and attendance
assessment and exam results
staff recruitment information
staff contracts
staff development reviews
staff and pupil references

Special category data is personal data that’s considered more sensitive and given greater protection in law.

Special category data includes
racial or ethnic origin
political opinions
religious or philosophical beliefs
trade-union membership
genetic information
biometric information (for example, a fingerprint)
health matters (for example, medical information)
sexual matters or sexual orientation

In a school, it would be best practice to also treat as special category data any personal data about:

a safeguarding matter
pupils in receipt of pupil premium
pupils with special educational needs and disability (SEND)
children in need (CIN)
children looked after by a local authority (CLA)

That's all pretty comprehensive, but I can see nothing about the sex of a child being protected data.

So Sexual matters is nothing to do with sex?
That's an odd conclusion.
Nor anything to do with medical information?
Nor a safeguarding matter.

The confidentiality issue refers at age 7 mainly to the parents, although should the school have decided it was necessary to tell other parents about the child, they would have had to find a way of explaining to the child what was going to happen, and to elicit the child's feeling about that. Had the child objected or shown distress at the prospect they would have needed to find a way of mitigating that before proceeding.

The question of truth and lies is relevant here. Children, especially early years and primary are consistently told lying is bad behaviour. This group of children have been lied to about something significant.
Lied to by teachers who are supposed to set the moral tone. The way they discovered this deceit will stay with them, they’ll need reassurance.
I find the way you set yourself up as the only poster who understands this complex issue, the way you patronise other posters and the rudeness in some of your responses, in no way develops the debate.
I worked with children for 35 years. In that time I met hundreds of children. I was responsible for only one toddler throughout that time, who doctors diagnosed as inter sex.

Iam64

The question of truth and lies is relevant here. Children, especially early years and primary are consistently told lying is bad behaviour. This group of children have been lied to about something significant.
Lied to by teachers who are supposed to set the moral tone. The way they discovered this deceit will stay with them, they’ll need reassurance.
I find the way you set yourself up as the only poster who understands this complex issue, the way you patronise other posters and the rudeness in some of your responses, in no way develops the debate.
I worked with children for 35 years. In that time I met hundreds of children. I was responsible for only one toddler throughout that time, who doctors diagnosed as inter sex.

Sorry Doodledog posted the list of issues which teachers are not legally entitled to disclose to anyone except other professionals.
Apparently she thinks sex isn't included in
Sex matters
Health matters
or
safeguarding issues
I would say it is. So if the parents instructed staff that they wanted the child's sex kept confidential staff would have to comply.

The law also says that any decision about confidentiality has to be discussed with the child in ways appropriate to the child's age. So staff would have had to explain to the child why they were revealing personal details and mitigate the effect of that.

Are you suggesting that teachers and staff should have broken that law by revealing the child's sex?

The emotive and dramatic slants put on what happened in this case show how deep the antagonism towards trans issues goes.

Let's look objectively at what happened
A child was regarded as a girl in school and everyone was happy with that.
The child then showed their genitals to another child saying it was a secret and the genitalia were male.
That child told her mother.
In an ideal world the mother's response might have been "that must have been a shock", or "I would have found that shocking how do you feel about it". Something which didn't over sensationalise the issue or cast aspersions on the other child.
A reasonable discussion about how some people have problems with their bodies could have happened.
The mother could have asked the child why they were friends before and if the things she liked about the other child would have changed or would remain the same.
Child could have been reassured. The trans child could have been accepted and the school could have got on with educating all the children.

Instead we have emotive and inflammatory comments about lying, and willy waving. Which helps no one, children, parents, or teachers.

Glorianny I am amazed that you are normalising a 7 yr old boy waving his penis around and then threatening little girls not to tell all whilst he is being allowed to pretend to be a girl.

So Sexual matters is nothing to do with sex?
That's an odd conclusion.
Nor anything to do with medical information?
Nor a safeguarding matter.

I expected something like this.

Sexual matters are nothing to do with gender, which is the crux of the matter. Is the sex of a child a 'sexual matter'? Or is it grouped with 'sexual orientation', as that is to do with sex - sexual attraction? that seems far more likely to me. And so-called 'gender' is nothing to do with either sex or sexual orientation.

Perhaps you can explain what gender identity (as opposed to sex) has to do with medical information either? I assume that a seven year old hasn't medically transitioned?

Safeguarding, yes. I agree that this is a safeguarding matter. The other children and their parents should not have been deceived into thinking that they were inviting a girl to a sleepover, or any other get together. That does have safeguarding implications, and I am very surprised that the HT appears to have been unaware of them.

Oh, and please stop telling me what I 'apparently think'. I can speak for myself, as I have done in the post above. The levels of condescension in many of your posts are off the scale.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny I am amazed that you are normalising a 7 yr old boy waving his penis around and then threatening little girls not to tell all whilst he is being allowed to pretend to be a girl.

There you are!
All you know is he showed his penis and said it was a secret which it was
The rest is sensationalist language

In an ideal world the mother's response might have been "that must have been a shock", or "I would have found that shocking how do you feel about it". Something which didn't over sensationalise the issue or cast aspersions on the other child.
A reasonable discussion about how some people have problems with their bodies could have happened.

Whose version of an 'ideal world' is this? Your ideals don't trump a version of an ideal world in which children can trust their teachers and learn how to believe in the evidence of their eyes.

There would have been no need for children their parents to have been 'shocked' if they hadn't been lied to in the first place.

I can understand the child's parents wanting to watch and wait to see if he grew out of the notion that he is a girl. The advice, however, is to do this without affirming the idea that changing sex is possible. Not only that, but the family don't operate in a vacuum. They are part of a school, and the other children have a right to be considered too.

If the child had changed back to wanting to be a boy, how would that have been handled? If, on the other hand, the child continued to want to be a girl, what would have happened during and after puberty? These are general questions, incidentally - not directed to any poster in particular. I raise them as the situation may seem harmless when it is 'just' a four year old playing with other children, but when that four year old becomes a sexually aware (very different from being 'gender confused') teen there is likely to be a whole new raft of problems that will need to be handled far more sensibly than this has been.

Doodledog

Oh, and please stop telling me what I 'apparently think'. I can speak for myself, as I have done in the post above. The levels of condescension in many of your posts are off the scale.

Sorry but how am I to interpret
That's all pretty comprehensive, but I can see nothing about the sex of a child being protected data.
When the protected data includes
sexual matters
health matters and
safeguarding.
Does sex come into those or not?

Doodledog

^In an ideal world^ the mother's response might have been "that must have been a shock", or "I would have found that shocking how do you feel about it". Something which didn't over sensationalise the issue or cast aspersions on the other child.
A reasonable discussion about how some people have problems with their bodies could have happened.

Whose version of an 'ideal world' is this? Your ideals don't trump a version of an ideal world in which children can trust their teachers and learn how to believe in the evidence of their eyes.

There would have been no need for children their parents to have been 'shocked' if they hadn't been lied to in the first place.

I can understand the child's parents wanting to watch and wait to see if he grew out of the notion that he is a girl. The advice, however, is to do this without affirming the idea that changing sex is possible. Not only that, but the family don't operate in a vacuum. They are part of a school, and the other children have a right to be considered too.

If the child had changed back to wanting to be a boy, how would that have been handled? If, on the other hand, the child continued to want to be a girl, what would have happened during and after puberty? These are general questions, incidentally - not directed to any poster in particular. I raise them as the situation may seem harmless when it is 'just' a four year old playing with other children, but when that four year old becomes a sexually aware (very different from being 'gender confused') teen there is likely to be a whole new raft of problems that will need to be handled far more sensibly than this has been.

The current advice is not t affirm 3 years ago there was no such advice.
As I said if the staff were to think they had to disclose the personal information they would have to explain to the child and be sure they were comfortable before they did so.

The emotive and dramatic slants put on what happened in this case show how deep the antagonism towards trans issues goes

I wondered how long it would be before these accusations appeared. 🤔

Untrue, but not unexpected.

What you are saying is that safeguarding issues should be totally disregarded, staff at a school should be complicit in hiding information which could have had safeguarding consequences, all because the parent(s) of one little boy, who clearly needs some help, made demands which the staff agreed to. They should have worked with his parent(s) to suggest and find a far better way of dealing with this.

One child's supposed welfare was prioritised above the welfare of the rest of the school. But, as has subsequently been demonstrated, he has now shown his friends that he is in fact a boy, so perhaps it is his parent(s) who may need help too.
He's only 7, has not even reached puberty and needs professional help.

Callistemon21 agree

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny I am amazed that you are normalising a 7 yr old boy waving his penis around and then threatening little girls not to tell all whilst he is being allowed to pretend to be a girl.

There you are!
All you know is he showed his penis and said it was a secret which it was
The rest is sensationalist language

So you feel it is totally within the bounds of normalcy to let a boy pretend to be a girl from the age of 4?

It is totally normal to deceive parents and pupils for the duration of reception, Year 1 and Year2?

You are happy for the school to basically let the pupils think it’s ok to lie and pretend to be something you are not?

All the above at the risk of trust between home-school-parents-pupils breaking down…

There is no there you are gotcha moment.

There's a thread on Mumsnet on this which is very interesting.

If I'm allowed to copy and paste one post, it seems an interesting viewpoint on the safeguarding aspects of this:

The child has been told to keep it a secret.
There is a culture where genitals are associated with secrecy
This is a safeguarding issue.

The child then tells the girls to keep it a secret after flashing them.
This is a safeguarding issue.

Even if the girls don't keep the secret and tell a parent, they risk not being believed by their parents.
This is a safeguarding issue.

Callistemon21

^The emotive and dramatic slants put on what happened in this case show how deep the antagonism towards trans issues goes^

I wondered how long it would be before these accusations appeared. 🤔

Untrue, but not unexpected.

What you are saying is that safeguarding issues should be totally disregarded, staff at a school should be complicit in hiding information which could have had safeguarding consequences, all because the parent(s) of one little boy, who clearly needs some help, made demands which the staff agreed to. They should have worked with his parent(s) to suggest and find a far better way of dealing with this.

One child's supposed welfare was prioritised above the welfare of the rest of the school. But, as has subsequently been demonstrated, he has now shown his friends that he is in fact a boy, so perhaps it is his parent(s) who may need help too.
He's only 7, has not even reached puberty and needs professional help.

Well firstly you have no idea what professional help the parents and staff may have accessed because this is protected information which they cannot share with anyone except fellow professionals who are involved, and who the parents (and the child when they are able) must give written consent to involving.

Perhaps they were working with the parents. Perhaps they had taken note of the very recent advice and were working to resolve the matter

Perhaps if there was more understanding expressed about trans issues the parents wouldn't have been so concerned and would have agreed to full disclosure in the first place.
He certainly demonstrated his genitalia. Children do such things. Most aren't castigated for doing so.

He certainly demonstrated his genitalia. Children do such things. Most aren't castigated for doing so.

Oh goodness, so you think it is acceptable for a 7 year old child to wave his male genitalia around at the girls, threaten them if they told and also to punch one?

Your priorities are quite wrong.

He was four, now seven - pre-puberty, not old enough to decide fully for himself, but perhaps he has clearly stated his preference now.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny I am amazed that you are normalising a 7 yr old boy waving his penis around and then threatening little girls not to tell all whilst he is being allowed to pretend to be a girl.

There you are!
All you know is he showed his penis and said it was a secret which it was
The rest is sensationalist language

So you feel it is totally within the bounds of normalcy to let a boy pretend to be a girl from the age of 4?

It is totally normal to deceive parents and pupils for the duration of reception, Year 1 and Year2?

You are happy for the school to basically let the pupils think it’s ok to lie and pretend to be something you are not?

All the above at the risk of trust between home-school-parents-pupils breaking down…

There is no there you are gotcha moment.

I haven't said I am happy about anything.
My emotions have nothing to do with the case.
The law is clear on confidentiality.
The information about not affirming was not available 3 years ago.
The school managed to educate a child for 3 years who might have problems. I certainly hope they were able to access help, unfortunately knowing the state of education and support services I would imagine they were left to cope.

I wonder what would anyone who accuses the child, the parents and the school of lying have done with this child? And would they have been prepared to face legal action if they were staff at the school and released confidential information?

The word is “gender” not “sex”. As bewildering as we might all find this I think this is a matter between the school, the child’s parents and other pupils and their parents. Is it really in the public interest to have this in the media, where no doubt some facts have been highly edited?

Glorianny, can you please explain how the child's so-called gender is a sexual matter? Or a medical matter?

They are both things that you say I 'apparently' believe to be unconnected to his sex. I wasn't saying they were or they weren't - FWIW, I think it's arguable whether a 4-7 year old's sex is a sexual matter, and it would only be a medical matter in limited circumstances, but that is nothing to do with this thread.

You twisted what I was saying, which is that his gender is neither a sexual nor a medical matter, unless I am missing something, and as such they do not fall under the guidance for confidentiality. Would you please clarify your position on this?

Doodledog

*Glorianny*, can you please explain how the child's so-called gender is a sexual matter? Or a medical matter?

They are both things that you say I 'apparently' believe to be unconnected to his sex. I wasn't saying they were or they weren't - FWIW, I think it's arguable whether a 4-7 year old's sex is a sexual matter, and it would only be a medical matter in limited circumstances, but that is nothing to do with this thread.

You twisted what I was saying, which is that his gender is neither a sexual nor a medical matter, unless I am missing something, and as such they do not fall under the guidance for confidentiality. Would you please clarify your position on this?

Your post never mentioned gender
That's all pretty comprehensive, but I can see nothing about the sex of a child being protected data.
1.Sex is a medical term and as such would be told to the staff and professionals at the school who would know this child was born a boy.
2.Gender refers to how the child presents in this case as a girl.

The child was accepted into the school as the gender they presented. It would be impossible for staff to say anything about that without revealing 1. which is confidential information.
I await an answer about how this should have been handled and if staff should have been willing to face prosecution by revealing confidential information.

Ok, but in a conversation about a boy wanting to be a girl and whether that should be kept confidential, it is his gender that is at issue, isn't it?

I am guessing that you are just ignoring my suggestion (made twice now) as to how it could have been handled. Confidentiality could have been respected, but the parents' request to have their male child registered and presented to other children as a girl be politely refused.

Doodledog

Ok, but in a conversation about a boy wanting to be a girl and whether that should be kept confidential, it is his gender that is at issue, isn't it?

I am guessing that you are just ignoring my suggestion (made twice now) as to how it could have been handled. Confidentiality could have been respected, but the parents' request to have their male child registered and presented to other children as a girl be politely refused.

Fine explain how the circumstances can be revealed by just referring to the gender (which was a girl) and not mentioning his sex. I'm quite willing to admit you are right if there is a way(but there isn't)

Glorianny

Doodledog

Ok, but in a conversation about a boy wanting to be a girl and whether that should be kept confidential, it is his gender that is at issue, isn't it?

I am guessing that you are just ignoring my suggestion (made twice now) as to how it could have been handled. Confidentiality could have been respected, but the parents' request to have their male child registered and presented to other children as a girl be politely refused.

Fine explain how the circumstances can be revealed by just referring to the gender (which was a girl) and not mentioning his sex. I'm quite willing to admit you are right if there is a way(but there isn't)

Schools can't refuse to admit a child if they have a space for them