Azar Ali

GrannyGravy13

Just because I recognise that the blame for this current situation lays firmly at the feet of Hamas, does not mean that I am not appalled at the loss of life in Palestine.

Yes, it is not either/or and I resent the implication that we do not care. It is a horrific situation for all those affected.
I have never said anything other than that.

It is also frightening to think that other countries around Israel are harbouring Hamas leaders and the whole situation could escalate dramatically, becoming more widespread.
Both sides seem to be intransigent.

GrannyGravy13

Just because I recognise that the blame for this current situation lays firmly at the feet of Hamas, does not mean that I am not appalled at the loss of life in Palestine.

Do you think it is justifiable? Are these dead women and children acceptable collateral damage in Netanyahu's attempt to rid the world of Hamas in order to protect Israeli citizens? Is it even possible to eliminate a vile ideology by bombing it or is Netanyahu just acting as a recruiting agent for Hamas?

I haven't seen anyone, on any of the threads about Gaza, support Hamas. As far as I am aware everyone condemns their actions on 7/10. What we have been discussing is Netanyahu's response and the actions of the IDF in Gaza. TBH I would expect everyone to be appalled by the loss of life in Palestine, I take it as a given but there's a difference in being "appalled" and believing it is "justifiable.

foxie48 where have I or any other poster on here said that the loss of life is justifiable ?

I reported foxie48's post as it makes untrue accusations against other posters.

Whether or not it remains is up to GNHQ but it is a shocking accusation to make against posters who have always condemned the deaths of innocent people and never, ever claimed anything if this is justified.

Best not to engage, GrannyGravy13.

Of course it's not justifiable. Is that MP wrong though?

My post was not an accusation. I asked a simple question with regard to Netanyahu's actions in Gaza being justifiable or acceptable as collateral damage. If you don't think it's justifiable or acceptable collateral damage, just say so.

I don't see any accusation. I'm pretty sure everybody is worried and upset about whats happening.

Aveline

Of course it's not justifiable. Is that MP wrong though?

I think he was wrong, he only apologised when he realised his remarks may cause him to lose votes.

In this instance the LOTO acted far too slowly, if he had acted quicker there would have been time to put up another Labour candidate.

Anniebach

The lack of action spoken of here is the government of Israel
allowing the massacre of Israeli citizens

I think most of us are aware that intelligence regarding possible Hamas attacks is a constant - the threat is always there and the Israeli Defence has to filter this information on a daily basis. It's quite possible that there are warnings of attacks/ incursions that don't materialise - so the IDF can't 'jump' on every single piece of netted intelligence - I assume it has to weigh the evidence and just 'watch' on occasions.

Also, what intelligence the IDF might have received would not necessarily indicate the scale of the possible attack - which is why Ali was so wrong to say what he did because he didn't back it up with any evidence, proof or new information, and on that basis alone the LP should have immediately distanced itself from him, especially given the Party's history of anti-Semitism, because his comment just sounded like more of the same.

All countries suffering terrorist attacks investigate afterward - "how did it happen", "could it have been prevented"... those questions are quite normal and justified. Considering the absolute - almost unimaginable - horror of this particular one, these questions need to be asked. And is is not anti-Semitic to ask them.

Aveline

Of course it's not justifiable. Is that MP wrong though?

As I see it, that MP might not necessarily have been wrong to speak his mind, but he has to live with the consequences. Greater than that, his party has to live with the consequences.

It might only be a short term issue in one sense, but, for those who don't "do" politics in a big way, it just brings to the fore another outspoken politician who is likely to go off on a rant, which isn't a good look. Some voters who may have been undecided are once again put off voting for that party because he didn't choose his words with care. Quite apart from what we feel about the Israel crisis.

Aveline

Of course it's not justifiable. Is that MP wrong though?

Ali Azar is not an MP.

He is a Councillor and was the Labour candidate in the forthcoming by-election.
He stood twice before as a Labour Parliamentary candidate but failed to win.

It is too late to change the names on the ballot papers so he will appear as the Labour candidate but will have to join another party or stand as an independent if he wins.

Callistemon21

Anniel

I just heard that Labour will not have a candidate in the Rochdale seat as Mr Ali was declared a candidate and Labour cannot choose another Labour representative. Is that really the case? Sir Keir’s decision was indeed a tough one for his party. Please do not elect George Galloway voters of Rochdale!

It was too late for the party to replace Mr Ali as its candidate

^The decision means that Mr Ali will remain on the ballot as the Labour candidate for Rochdale, but if he is elected he will sit as a independent MP or join another party.^

Callistemon21. Thank you. I heard a commentator on the news saying that. He was mistaken and so was I!

Dickens

Surely, when we are critical of a nation's government, we are not condemning all the people governed by it?

The West is at loggerheads with Iran (for example) - are we reviling its people, many of whom appear also to be opposed to its own government? Are we censuring Islam because we denounce an administration that has appropriated the religion for its own ends?

Even within governments, there are factions that disagree, we've seen it with our own government.

Are we then to keep quiet, not question, not hold governments accountable?

Azhar Ali was wrong to say that Israel planned to "get rid of [Palestinians] from Gaza" and "grab" some of the land - because he is presenting it as a fact, and as far as I know has offered no evidence to support it. If you are in the 'public eye' you cannot make inflammatory statements like that and not be held accountable, and the Labour Party should have withdrawn its support for him as a candidate immediately.

In the interests of free-speech and Democracy, one can still ask the question though of why - if the Israeli government was made aware of the intelligence that indicated Hamas might be planning an attack (and such intelligence allegedly came from more than one source) - they appeared to ignore it. Surely those whose family members were slaughtered so barbarically in the attack have a right to know and will want to know if it could have been prevented? Governments have a duty to protect their citizens - as far as is possible anyway.

Dickens, re Iran. Be honest because we know Iran is an is an Islamic country. I know of no other religion being practised there. The government is in no way democratic and women who refused to wear the hijab have been killed or are serving long prison sentences.. I wouldn’t like the chances of any politician that opposed ANY government policy. It is Iran who is funding the attacks on world shipping in the area. Say what you like but Israel is the only thriving democracy in the Middle East. The Israelis can vote Netanyahu out of office.The Iranian people do not have that possibility. Re Israel knowing beforehand about October 7th another canard originating in Egypt and now being spouted on X with no proof .You may not like Netanyahu but I do not believe these stories. London has these pro Palestinian marches far too often. If these people
believe it will make any difference to government policy they are mistaken.. The way Jewish people in London are suffering is truly awful. Do you think staging an occupation of the British Museum will gain these people more support. I think not.

Ali Azar is not an MP.
Thanks. Oh well, that's exactly what I mean about people who aren't overly interested in politics, picking up wrong information and linking it to what they want to hear, and to justify their opinion of a political party on past issues.
He blew it for me, at a time when KS is struggling a bit too.

Joseann

^Ali Azar is not an MP.^
Thanks. Oh well, that's exactly what I mean about people who aren't overly interested in politics, picking up wrong information and linking it to what they want to hear, and to justify their opinion of a political party on past issues.
He blew it for me, at a time when KS is struggling a bit too.

It's only the fact that he was chosen as a Labour candidate (again) that it has hit the headlines.

Starmer was slow to respond.
Unfortunately it could mean that Galloway could be elected.

Apologies - I copied the typo in the heading.

His name is Azhar Ali.

Re Israel knowing beforehand about October 7th another canard originating in Egypt and now being spouted on X with no proof .You may not like Netanyahu but I do not believe these stories. London has these pro Palestinian marches far too often

and you are free to have your opinion Annie1, but I think you will find that many sources, not just Twitter, are unclear as to the whys and wherefores of Israeli intelligence not being aware of or acting on reports of Hamas insurgence. It is also worth reminding ourselves that Netanyahu is immensley unpopular in Israel and there were mass demonstrations in Tel Aviv before October 7th. Before any accusations of anti-semitism fly my way; I dislike Netanyahu, dislike right wing populists like him who hang on to power too long, and I think that the action taken against the people of Gaza is disproportionate and cruel. This does not mean that I support Hamas.

I am also concerned, as we all should, that this terrible retribution on the Palestinian people is recruiting the next generation of terrorists who will blame us, the USA and Europe for not demanding that Israel stop, in fact we sell the weapons to them. Hundreds and thousands of young men who have seen their families blown to bits, have seen their parents and grandparents weep, who are unable to attend school, eat, drink clean water, who don't have a roof over their head are going to blame us because we didn't stop it

Anniel

Dickens

Surely, when we are critical of a nation's government, we are not condemning all the people governed by it?

The West is at loggerheads with Iran (for example) - are we reviling its people, many of whom appear also to be opposed to its own government? Are we censuring Islam because we denounce an administration that has appropriated the religion for its own ends?

Even within governments, there are factions that disagree, we've seen it with our own government.

Are we then to keep quiet, not question, not hold governments accountable?

Azhar Ali was wrong to say that Israel planned to "get rid of [Palestinians] from Gaza" and "grab" some of the land - because he is presenting it as a fact, and as far as I know has offered no evidence to support it. If you are in the 'public eye' you cannot make inflammatory statements like that and not be held accountable, and the Labour Party should have withdrawn its support for him as a candidate immediately.

In the interests of free-speech and Democracy, one can still ask the question though of why - if the Israeli government was made aware of the intelligence that indicated Hamas might be planning an attack (and such intelligence allegedly came from more than one source) - they appeared to ignore it. Surely those whose family members were slaughtered so barbarically in the attack have a right to know and will want to know if it could have been prevented? Governments have a duty to protect their citizens - as far as is possible anyway.

Dickens, re Iran. Be honest because we know Iran is an is an Islamic country. I know of no other religion being practised there. The government is in no way democratic and women who refused to wear the hijab have been killed or are serving long prison sentences.. I wouldn’t like the chances of any politician that opposed ANY government policy. It is Iran who is funding the attacks on world shipping in the area. Say what you like but Israel is the only thriving democracy in the Middle East. The Israelis can vote Netanyahu out of office.The Iranian people do not have that possibility. Re Israel knowing beforehand about October 7th another canard originating in Egypt and now being spouted on X with no proof .You may not like Netanyahu but I do not believe these stories. London has these pro Palestinian marches far too often. If these people
believe it will make any difference to government policy they are mistaken.. The way Jewish people in London are suffering is truly awful. Do you think staging an occupation of the British Museum will gain these people more support. I think not.

Dickens is being honest. I really don't understand your point about Iran. Yes, the vast majority of Iranians are Muslims, but it doesn't mean that the majority of them support their own government. It's an authoritarian government and we've seen from the way recent demonstrations were put down that the people have little choice.

I feel the same about Israelis. I utterly condemn the actions of the extremists in government and the settlers in the West Bank, but it doesn't mean that I have anything against ordinary Israelis - or Jews in other countries.

This is twisting & turning at its best. Hamas are terrorists.
Let’s not forget that. It’s important to remember. If they didn’t factor retribution for their heinous acts they ought to have done so. I cannot believe they thought they would not be hunted down (amongst the myriad miles of tunnels they’ve spent exorbitant amounts of money building - at the expense of supplies to their OWN people over the years - no wonder Gazans are so impoverished) as the IDF sought to find those hostages.

Anniel

Dickens

Surely, when we are critical of a nation's government, we are not condemning all the people governed by it?

The West is at loggerheads with Iran (for example) - are we reviling its people, many of whom appear also to be opposed to its own government? Are we censuring Islam because we denounce an administration that has appropriated the religion for its own ends?

Even within governments, there are factions that disagree, we've seen it with our own government.

Are we then to keep quiet, not question, not hold governments accountable?

Azhar Ali was wrong to say that Israel planned to "get rid of [Palestinians] from Gaza" and "grab" some of the land - because he is presenting it as a fact, and as far as I know has offered no evidence to support it. If you are in the 'public eye' you cannot make inflammatory statements like that and not be held accountable, and the Labour Party should have withdrawn its support for him as a candidate immediately.

In the interests of free-speech and Democracy, one can still ask the question though of why - if the Israeli government was made aware of the intelligence that indicated Hamas might be planning an attack (and such intelligence allegedly came from more than one source) - they appeared to ignore it. Surely those whose family members were slaughtered so barbarically in the attack have a right to know and will want to know if it could have been prevented? Governments have a duty to protect their citizens - as far as is possible anyway.

Dickens, re Iran. Be honest because we know Iran is an is an Islamic country. I know of no other religion being practised there. The government is in no way democratic and women who refused to wear the hijab have been killed or are serving long prison sentences.. I wouldn’t like the chances of any politician that opposed ANY government policy. It is Iran who is funding the attacks on world shipping in the area. Say what you like but Israel is the only thriving democracy in the Middle East. The Israelis can vote Netanyahu out of office.The Iranian people do not have that possibility. Re Israel knowing beforehand about October 7th another canard originating in Egypt and now being spouted on X with no proof .You may not like Netanyahu but I do not believe these stories. London has these pro Palestinian marches far too often. If these people
believe it will make any difference to government policy they are mistaken.. The way Jewish people in London are suffering is truly awful. Do you think staging an occupation of the British Museum will gain these people more support. I think not.

Dickens, re Iran. Be honest because we know Iran is an is an Islamic country. I know of no other religion being practised there.

I am being honest!

The point I am making is that when we condemn Iran, we are not condemning all Muslims everywhere else - we are not being anti-Muslim- in the same way that criticising the Israeli government under Netanyahu is not being anti-Semitic, nor are we attacking Judaism.

And sure, I'd rather live in Israel than Iran, but that's not the point either, I'm just addressing the accusations of anti-Semitism made to those who are critical of the Israeli government under Netanyahu, by using Iran as an example of how one can condemn a government without being anti its people.

As for your final para re pro Palestinian marches... I'm not part of that enclave of people so I have no idea what they think or what they believe will be achieved by their efforts, and had no idea they were in the British Museum because I am not a follower - nor am I on X.

Being critical of Netanyahu does not automatically make me a pro-Palestinian supporter you know.

And yes, I do know how Jewish people are not only suffering here but are very frightened about the future. My step-brother is Jewish so I know first hand. Though he's not living in London, thank goodness. He doesn't like Netanyahu either.

Urmstongran

This is twisting & turning at its best. Hamas are terrorists.
Let’s not forget that. It’s important to remember. If they didn’t factor retribution for their heinous acts they ought to have done so. I cannot believe they thought they would not be hunted down (amongst the myriad miles of tunnels they’ve spent exorbitant amounts of money building - at the expense of supplies to their OWN people over the years - no wonder Gazans are so impoverished) as the IDF sought to find those hostages.

I doubt if anybody has forgotten, but it's not the issue being discussed.

Incidentally, Annie1, the report that the Israelis had intelligence about the 7 October attack was reported widely on 1 December 2023 on CNN and in the Jewish Post, amongst many others. It isn't only now being spouted on X by conspiracy theorists.

For example:

www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-776012

Maybe they all got it wrong. Who knows?

Further reports then emerged that a surveillance unit had observed unusual activity, which was then ignored by senior IDF officers.

I know no more than anybody on GN what happens behind closed doors in Netanyahu's government, but somebody messed up badly, especially considering Israel boasts probably the best defensive systems in the world, and I would be amazed if "angry" words haven't been exchanged (at the least).

Are ordinary Palestinians permitted to say to Hamas " No Thanks, I'm alright as I am , I don't want to join. I'll go for one of the other political parties"

An iron grip on the Gaza population:

The last elections for the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) were held on 25 January 2006. There have not been any elections either for president or for the legislature since these two elections.

Urmstongran

An iron grip on the Gaza population:

The last elections for the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) were held on 25 January 2006. There have not been any elections either for president or for the legislature since these two elections.

Consider why there haven't been elections. The main reason seems to be that Hamas would have won a massive victory and this was unacceptable to many, including the Palestinian president, other countries and Israel. I wonder is it OK to disenfranchise people because you don't like their choices?