The vote on the call for ceasefire in Gaza

Zionism is a faith

Apparently the plan put forward is that there will be an agreement between 3 big players. Israel, USA and Saudi. Saudi will agree and join support with Israel against the various outlier groups like Hezbollah, Houthis and Hamas as well as Iran. USA will provide support. In return Israel must agree a two state solution and recognise a fully sovereign Palestine.

The fly in the ointment is Netanyahu.

No annie read about its development in Russia - it is an ideology - initially coming about as an answer to the Russian pogroms and “sold” to the British government as a solution to “the Jewish problem”

Zionists now are largely represented by the settler movement who believe in an expansionist Israel. Hopefully this will end with a two state solution.

No, it’s a faith , difficult for those without faith to understand

Anniebach

No, it’s a faith , difficult for those without faith to understand

No, Zionism isn't a faith. It's a political ideology with roots in the late nineteenth century. Nobody needs a faith (or not) to understand its history.

Anniebach

Zionism is a faith

It isn't.

According to the Oxford language dictionary :

Zionism is a movement for the re-establishment and development/protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It emerged as a nationalist movement in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for Jewish people in Palestine, a region roughly corresponding to the land of Israel in Jewish tradition
This has been my understanding. I’ve always found the use of Zionist/zionism as a term of abuse extremely offensive

I love the word, my g grandfather baptist minister,came to a mining area of
South Wales to build a English baptist chapel so people who moved to work in the mines and didn’t speak Welsh had a place of worship to attend , he called the chapel Zion , brings God closer

Yes that’s an interesting point Annie. We have a Zion chapel and area in a Manchester area

My understanding of Zionism is the same as yours Iam.

Iam64

According to the Oxford language dictionary :

Zionism is a movement for the re-establishment and development/protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It emerged as a nationalist movement in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for Jewish people in Palestine, a region roughly corresponding to the land of Israel in Jewish tradition
This has been my understanding. I’ve always found the use of Zionist/zionism as a term of abuse extremely offensive

It's a political ideology with roots in the late nineteenth century
Not originally, but it was coined very aptly by that movement.

Zion is an old term for Jerusalem or for Mount Zion; a longing for Zion is a longing of exiled Jewish people for their homeland.

Rather like hiraeth, Anniebach

I did say that the meaning has undergone a change recently which is sad.
Used by some as a term of abuse; it's a subtle way of saying that the Jewish people have no right to their original homeland.

Yes Callistemon so like Hiraeth, Jews like everyone need Hiraeth I can’t imagine what it must be like not to have that belonging

Used by some as a term of abuse; it’s a subtle way of saying that the Jewish people have no right to their original homeland.

And sadly I’ve seen it used in such a way on Gransnet.

Exactly Callistemon, used to deny that Jewish people must continue to wander, be subject to pogroms

Iam64

Exactly Callistemon, used to deny that Jewish people must continue to wander, be subject to pogroms

Well a significant number of Jewish people oppose Zionism, for a variety of reasons. Some Orthodox Jews believe that a true Jewish homeland can only be brought about after the arrival of the Messiah and until then God has ruled Jews should live in exile. So they reject Israel.

The most disturbing issue in this is the admission by Starmer on Sky News that before the vote he had private talks with the President of Israel. His leadership campaign allegedly received funding for Trevor Chin- a pro -Israel lobbyist. Another powerful Israel lobbyist , Gary Lubner, said on YouTube he is donating billions of dollars to a Labour Party headed by Keir Starmer. Apparently, the Lubner family firm PG Group- was an important backer also of the South African apartheid regime when there were routine murders and children imprisoned without trial.
The Conservative Party is no different with Suella Braverman boasting g of having family members in the IDF and stoking up anti- Muslim rhetoric in the press .
Israel has this country , and the USA, in a stranglehold.

ICYMI -
x.com/ToryFibs/status/1760346063876096142?s=20

Brummie I think the accusation that the Lubner family supported Apartheid has been discredited.
tbh I'm always a bit wary of linking a donor's faith with their motives for donating and when it is linked to Judaism it might be seen as anti semitic just as if the donor is a Muslim it might be seen as Islamaphobic. Have you links to evidence that either Chinn or Lubner has used their donations to influence actual Labour party policy?

Iam reading accusations that Starmer and other members of the Labour Party are being funded by Israeli connections, which is why he acted as he did yesterday.

We need answers.

Your post above Whitewave where did you read the above and did you get answers ?

Criticism of Israel and its government is not anti-Semitic. It has dispossessed and dehumanised the Palestinian people for over 75 year. Many Jewish people are against Israel, its government and Zionism. You will see people of the Jewish faith, along with Christians, Muslims, atheists, Human Rights campaigners, struggling to make their voices heard in the marches which one of your readers in Manchester complains about. Jewish people protest weekly outside the Israeli ambassadors residence about the siege of Gaza ,
- the genocide, starvation and destruction of homes and infrastructure. The ambassador had expressed her aim ‘to destroy the whole of Gaza- every single building in it.’
Zionism has nothing to do with the Jewish faith.
Foxie48 is naive to think big donors are not going to influence policy.

Why is no one calling for Russia to stop bombarding Ukraine or China and Iran murdering people and have been for a long time, people wiping out whole villages and kidnapping young girls in Africa? No one seems bothered about them.

brummie

Criticism of Israel and its government is not anti-Semitic. It has dispossessed and dehumanised the Palestinian people for over 75 year. Many Jewish people are against Israel, its government and Zionism. You will see people of the Jewish faith, along with Christians, Muslims, atheists, Human Rights campaigners, struggling to make their voices heard in the marches which one of your readers in Manchester complains about. Jewish people protest weekly outside the Israeli ambassadors residence about the siege of Gaza ,
- the genocide, starvation and destruction of homes and infrastructure. The ambassador had expressed her aim ‘to destroy the whole of Gaza- every single building in it.’
Zionism has nothing to do with the Jewish faith.
Foxie48 is naive to think big donors are not going to influence policy.

I have no doubt that being a big donor gives "access" but that is not the same as influencing policy.

gagsy

Why is no one calling for Russia to stop bombarding Ukraine or China and Iran murdering people and have been for a long time, people wiping out whole villages and kidnapping young girls in Africa? No one seems bothered about them.

Because Jewish people are involved gagsy.

I agree urmstongran- the SNP have lost their credibility due to Nicola Sturgeons machinations and subsequent downfall. Therefore, they used the tragic Gaza/Israel situation as a hand grenade. The whole saga was entirely their fault. Keir Starmers amendment included the return of the Israeli hostages and was therefore a balanced view.

gagsy

Why is no one calling for Russia to stop bombarding Ukraine or China and Iran murdering people and have been for a long time, people wiping out whole villages and kidnapping young girls in Africa? No one seems bothered about them.

Perhaps because our government is not supplying arms to Russia and is supporting Ukraine. The situation in fact is exactly the reverse of that conflict. Suppose we were supplying Russia with arms and allowing them to bomb Ukraine after they had driven the citizens of Ukraine into a small enclave, would that be OK? If not why is it OK for Israel to treat Palestinians in such a way?