The vote on the call for ceasefire in Gaza

I agree the Commons has no influence over the Gaza war and the Parties are simply virtue signalling to pick up votes in the GE. The SNP were playing politics to encourage a vote split in Labour - they are scared of a Labour resurgence in Scotland. The Tories were hoping a Labour split would happen. The Speaker probably got it wrong but I don't think he is on the way out.

Grantanow

I agree the Commons has no influence over the Gaza war and the Parties are simply virtue signalling to pick up votes in the GE. The SNP were playing politics to encourage a vote split in Labour - they are scared of a Labour resurgence in Scotland. The Tories were hoping a Labour split would happen. The Speaker probably got it wrong but I don't think he is on the way out.

That is precisely what I’ve been saying all day….

I believe the same, I hope the speaker stays

Urmstongran

I like thoughtful, tolerant people. Of all stripes and faiths. Or none (like me). I have friends who are Muslim (I live in Manchester a place of great diversity, not a little hideaway village) and we get along well. What I do not like is this bear garden mentality on our streets every weekend. Flag waving and hurling (screaming) abuse. The UK is a fair and tolerant society and I am proud to be part of it but if I’m honest? I fear for our future. Our borders are so porous to be laughable. Not every incomer has our best interests at heart. The Manchester bomber proved that at the Ariana Grande concert where 22 people lost their lives attending a concert. Literally just up the road from where I live. So yes, I see the dangers that lie ahead if we don’t nip all this in the bud.

How the heck to you propose to "nip all this in the bud"?

If politicians in a supposedly first world country behave live toddlers in their own parliament, how do you expect people with far more deep-seated issues in the Middle East to sort anything out?

My daughter lived in central Manchester at the time of the Ariane Grande concert, literally a hundred metres from the arena and I remember the fear when I heard about it. She is now married to a man with Arab parents. They have lived together for seven years and both of them have told me of the name-calling they've experienced because he looks "different". She's been called names too for living with somebody who might be a terrorist. The trouble is that some people are so ignorant they lump all people with certain characteristics together and can't get over their own prejudices.

We have seen a glimpse of the true colours of Keir Starmer in his part in yesterday's debacle. Some one yesterday described him as honest, trustworthy, honourable (I cannot find the post to quote accurately.)
Obviously not.

The Telegraph can reveal that Sir Keir personally lobbied Sir Lindsay to choose Labour’s amendment for a vote.

The Labour leader visited him on Wednesday to plead his case, raising fresh questions about the degree to which the Labour sought to lean on the Speaker as the decision on votes was being made.

The political danger for Sir Lindsay has not passed. There is no formal mechanism to oust a Speaker, but the scale of concern among MPs has been a critical factor for past departures. (The Telegraph today)

Urmstongran has got it absolutely right, and we have got to be extremely careful what we do next. The conflict in the Middle East is being used by the muslims to stir up racial divisions. They don't see things as Pro-Israel or Pro-Palestine....they see it as anti-muslim or pro-muslim.
A pity those in power didn't think ahead and consider the consequences of their mass immigration plan. Different races have different mind-sets, it's about time people realised that.
Let Parliament stick to what it's meant to do......deal with British politics!

Grantanow

I agree the Commons has no influence over the Gaza war and the Parties are simply virtue signalling to pick up votes in the GE. The SNP were playing politics to encourage a vote split in Labour - they are scared of a Labour resurgence in Scotland. The Tories were hoping a Labour split would happen. The Speaker probably got it wrong but I don't think he is on the way out.

Totally agree with this. People playing politics. It’s a shame, the constituents of each MP are supposed to be the priority. No MP has any constituents in Israel or Gaza.

I am reading accusations that Starmer and other members of the Labour Party are being funded by Israeli connections, which is why he acted as he did yesterday.

We need answers.

Yes I certainly think that there is an element of truth in grantanows post, the SNP are expecting to lose seats to labour.

Having slept on this issue, I am left wondering what a more proportionate response from Parliament might be?
Maybe a recognition that this country has great sorrow for the humanitarian crisis in Israel and Gaza and ….. a recognition that we are unable to further influence political decision making to effect peace.
However where does this leave the West and rest of the world in supplying weapons to continue this conflict? This is surely up for debate in Parliament and might have more impact than simply standing by unable to make any meaningful contribution towards a resolution. Or perhaps just more empty rhetoric?

Where would you be reading that WW?

There is the issue of MP intimidation to consider. Two MPs murdered in recent years, and reports of MP intimidation at their own homes or constituency offices. One MP had his constituency office burnt out by someone. The report I read suggested it was arson. So if KS is concerned about MP safety, then that is a valid concern, and maybe a reason not to have votes on contentious issues that the UK cannot influence.

growstuff

Urmstongran

I like thoughtful, tolerant people. Of all stripes and faiths. Or none (like me). I have friends who are Muslim (I live in Manchester a place of great diversity, not a little hideaway village) and we get along well. What I do not like is this bear garden mentality on our streets every weekend. Flag waving and hurling (screaming) abuse. The UK is a fair and tolerant society and I am proud to be part of it but if I’m honest? I fear for our future. Our borders are so porous to be laughable. Not every incomer has our best interests at heart. The Manchester bomber proved that at the Ariana Grande concert where 22 people lost their lives attending a concert. Literally just up the road from where I live. So yes, I see the dangers that lie ahead if we don’t nip all this in the bud.

How the heck to you propose to "nip all this in the bud"?

If politicians in a supposedly first world country behave live toddlers in their own parliament, how do you expect people with far more deep-seated issues in the Middle East to sort anything out?

My daughter lived in central Manchester at the time of the Ariane Grande concert, literally a hundred metres from the arena and I remember the fear when I heard about it. She is now married to a man with Arab parents. They have lived together for seven years and both of them have told me of the name-calling they've experienced because he looks "different". She's been called names too for living with somebody who might be a terrorist. The trouble is that some people are so ignorant they lump all people with certain characteristics together and can't get over their own prejudices.

Let’s not get into ‘virtue signalling’ on here - as in “I’m more tolerant/accepting/liberal than …”. As I said upthread, nice people are nice people. End of. All stripes/faiths/none.

But let’s not be naive. Some who walk amongst us do wish us harm. They are fanatics. They hate the West and our way of life with a passion. They regard us as ‘infidels’ and attend mosques where their imams preach hate.

We are sleepwalking into serious times if we don’t pay attention to the stirrings of agitating factions around us on the streets. Why else does Starmer wish to keep constituents sweet? Not just after their votes but to placate them so they don’t intimidate his MPs.

This is not democracy.
It’s mob rule.
And it’s dangerous.

We ignore this at our peril.

This is what was passed last night - and which the government will ignore.

No a single party came out of this smelling of roses, each has many questions to answer.

A weak speaker made things so much worse, unclear whether he will survive although also unclear how he is got rid of if he doesn’t resign?

Oh forgot the file

After all the heart rending speeches in the HoC it seems really that the bottom line wasn’t Gaza per se but the SNP politicking to the highest degree - wanting to expose the divisions within Labour, trip them up and call them out to embarrass them. The SNP are concerned about the prospect of a Labour surge in Scotland at the next GE. All this mess then ensued. A dirty business.

Urmstongran

After all the heart rending speeches in the HoC it seems really that the bottom line wasn’t Gaza per se but the SNP politicking to the highest degree - wanting to expose the divisions within Labour, trip them up and call them out to embarrass them. The SNP are concerned about the prospect of a Labour surge in Scotland at the next GE. All this mess then ensued. A dirty business.

Totally agree, it was a orchestrated ploy by the SNP to stir things up.

Agree

Yes, but what I saw was that every single MP who stood up bar 1 wanted an immediate ceasefire.

So regardless of the politicking, if only one motion had been put calling for a ceasefire, it would have passed overwhelmingly.

I am concerned t about the numerous rumours/reports circulating that Mr. Starmer aided and abetted by Sue Grey put pressure on The Speaker for dubious reasons (saving the face of the Labour Party /hiding the divisions)

It has not helped my faith in politics nor helped me with the Keir Starmer is one of the good guys rhetoric being trotted out by all opposing the current government.

Whitewavemark2

Yes, but what I saw was that every single MP who stood up bar 1 wanted an immediate ceasefire.

So regardless of the politicking, if only one motion had been put calling for a ceasefire, it would have passed overwhelmingly.

They were far too busy playing Billy big bu***cks than truly caring about the motion…

I know that it would have no influence on Israel - but it would send a signal to the U.K. that parliament agrees with the population (77%) that the violence in Gaza should cease immediately.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

Yes, but what I saw was that every single MP who stood up bar 1 wanted an immediate ceasefire.

So regardless of the politicking, if only one motion had been put calling for a ceasefire, it would have passed overwhelmingly.

They were far too busy playing Billy big bu***cks than truly caring about the motion…

Yes I know - but they must agree that a ceasefire is right otherwise why stand up and say so?

Some of the speeches were heartrending - from all sides of the house. It would be cynical to the point of madness to think that those MPs were simply playing silly buggers.

After observing yesterdays debacle in the HoC, I actually feel ashamed of our politicians - on all sides. They used the terrible situation in Gaza as a platform for political point scoring - all of them! There was little difference between their various motions / amendments; it was just semantics. They were all actually calling for the same thing. Yet, they squabbled over ‘whose amendment is it going to be’ like children arguing over a toy. The HoC yesterday had the opportunity to come together yet they were unable & unwilling. Jess Phillips summed up the situation very well when she said ‘How can we expect people to lay down their arms, when we can’t even agree on laying down words’. Yesterday became all about political point scoring, on all sides, and the war in Gaza faded into the background. It was a bad day for UK democracy and I think MPs should hang their heads in shame today.