Shemima Begum.

OldFrill

JenniferEccles

As GSM has said, the then Home Secretary’s comment “if you knew what I know” is more than enough to indicate just what a threat this woman is to our country.

Cases like this make me so cross.
Her family were given permission to settle here and this is how they repay us.
We’ve seen it time and time again with acts of terrorism.

It remains we do not know what the then Home Secretary knew and we are unlikely to ever know if he actually knew anything or was bluffing (downright lying). Leaks to the tabloids were made at the time which were later discredited.
All this gossip about state secrets and covert information isn't even worthy of the worst tabloids.

He knew enough to take the step of revoking her British citizenship, and the grounds for doing so were heard in camera by the court, which confirmed that he did not act unlawfully,

foxie48

Primrose53

The journalist who visited and spent time with her in the camps was on tv tonight. He knows her better than anybody else. He says she showed him a photo of her firstborn child and he said he was very sorry he died. She said “don’t worry, I’m over it now.” He said she was emotionless.

People who have experienced trauma often present like this, emotionally shut down. It's how people cope. I've seen her interviewed and there's a complete blankness about her. Just try to imagine what she has gone through, it may be her own fault but it doesn't make her experiences any less real. Giving birth without the support of her family and seeing all three children die, seeing the most dreadful violence, living in fear for her life whilst knowing that escape is pretty impossible. All of this between the ages of 15 and 19. I could go on but is it surprising that she's found her way of coping by becoming "emotionless"

This simplistic, angry, ill informed assessment of SB doesn’t assist in any way.
She was a wilful , easily groomed 15 year old when she went to join the caliphate. We know a little of her life since then, none of it conducive to developing into a stable, reflective, mature woman in her mid twenties. I’ve met women and girls who dismiss trauma in the way she has. Their flat,unemotional presentation usually improves when they’re safe and supported.

Iam64

foxie48

Primrose53

The journalist who visited and spent time with her in the camps was on tv tonight. He knows her better than anybody else. He says she showed him a photo of her firstborn child and he said he was very sorry he died. She said “don’t worry, I’m over it now.” He said she was emotionless.

People who have experienced trauma often present like this, emotionally shut down. It's how people cope. I've seen her interviewed and there's a complete blankness about her. Just try to imagine what she has gone through, it may be her own fault but it doesn't make her experiences any less real. Giving birth without the support of her family and seeing all three children die, seeing the most dreadful violence, living in fear for her life whilst knowing that escape is pretty impossible. All of this between the ages of 15 and 19. I could go on but is it surprising that she's found her way of coping by becoming "emotionless"

This simplistic, angry, ill informed assessment of SB doesn’t assist in any way.
She was a wilful , easily groomed 15 year old when she went to join the caliphate. We know a little of her life since then, none of it conducive to developing into a stable, reflective, mature woman in her mid twenties. I’ve met women and girls who dismiss trauma in the way she has. Their flat,unemotional presentation usually improves when they’re safe and supported.

Simplistic, perhaps. Angry, no, not at all. Ill informed, possibly I don't know SB any more than you do but you feel qualified to describe what she was like prior to going to Syria! We do agree on one thing though, that she was groomed, "a wilful, easily groomed 15 year old" I totally agree with you and that is precisely why she be brought back to the UK to face any charges that can be brought.

Regardless of the danger which the security services clearly consider she now poses? I have pointed out upthread that she would be unlikely to be imprisoned for very long as the only crime she has committed here is joining a proscribed organisation. After serving a short sentence she would be free. Would you feel safe?

No. She should not be allowed back to the UK. An example to others.
Meanwhile the lawyers will be rubbing their hands. Who is paying for all this? Us?

15 year old children should never be used as an example to others. Also, justice should not depend on cost.

If there are known facts (as opposed to prejudice and suppositions) about the likelihood of her being a risk to the security of the UK, then I can understand that it might be better if she didn't return, and we have to take that on trust, as for obvious reasons we can't be told what those facts might be. At the same time, as a UK citizen, where else is she supposed to go? Surely she is far more likely to be (further) radicalised if she stays in Syria? It's not as simple as some posts make out.

She is no longer a UK citizen. The farther away she is, the better imo. She will be just one more dangerous person in Syria.

Ok, she would be a British citizen if citizenship hadn't been denied her.

I see your point that if she is still dangerous she will be one more dangerous person in Syria.

It's not easy. I don't care about the cost, and as I say, I think making an example of children is abhorrent, but I do accept that there may be more to this than we know.

Germanshepherdsmum

Glorianny

If she was returned to the UK and still presented a threat she could surely be held under the Terrorism Investigation and Prevention Act in a place of safety until such time as the secretary of State recognised she presented no threat.

I suggest you read the Act. It doesn’t enable indefinite imprisonment without trial.

I've read it. She could be held for a period of time- up to two years. That could be reviewed and extended if she was still a threat. By which time the security forces could have gathered enough evidence if she was actually active for a charge to be brought. She would not (as you have claimed) be free to walk the streets if there was a threat. Any involvement in terrorism would be revealed.
Of course she still presents a threat to the Intelligence services who were involved in the trafficking of children to Isis.

If you look at the sentencing guidelines I posted upthread you will see that she is singularly unlikely to be given the maximum sentence due to mitigating factors. Whilst imprisoned she would be unable to be ‘active’. The information the security forces have about her will not be disclosed in open court. This legislation is insufficient to ensure our safety from this woman.

Putting other considerations aside for a moment, after listening to the BBC sounds podcast I Am Not A Monster I started to think of what she has experienced as a woman. She gave birth to three babies with who knows what medical care or emotional support. She saw them all die, two from starvation after the fall of the caliphate,if her husband is to be believed. She does that televised interview days after giving birth. No wonder she comes across as emotionless. She is already being very well punished for her decisions and if she does return to the UK she will live the life of a pariah with endless press intrusion. I can't see there being a positive outcome for her anywhere.

I haven't read all the posts, but someone upthread said the parents have gone back to Pakistan. I thought they came from Bangladesh.

For avoidance of doubt, I am not blaming her for being emotionless - I am saying that her lack of emotion makes her seem uncaring, and that this in itself shouldn't be held against her.

They did come from Bangladesh Maremia.

I don’t care about the cost

Well, I do, and suspect many others do too.

I do too Calendargirl this is a money tress for those being paid to represent her.

This young woman made some very bad choices as a teenager - as indeed do many of us - and is paying a high price.

I have to assume that the powers that be have serious reasons to believe that she might constitute a threat, presumably because of the potential influence on her of terrorists. It is a very sad situation.

Calendargirl

^I don’t care about the cost^

Well, I do, and suspect many others do too.

Which is fair enough. I wasn't saying that anyone shouldn't have their own opinion, just that in mine justice should not be based on ability to pay.

For WIW, according to Hansard, more than 350 fighting-age men who went to Syria and joined ISIS have come back to the UK. It's hard to understand why men can come home but women can't. hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-03-18/debates/42259394-C90B-4670-BFC9-A5F91518A5FF/ISISMembersReturningToTheUK#:~:text=About%2020%25%20of%20those%20900,and%20Syria%20and%20since%20returned.

nahsma

For WIW, according to Hansard, more than 350 fighting-age men who went to Syria and joined ISIS have come back to the UK. It's hard to understand why men can come home but women can't. hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-03-18/debates/42259394-C90B-4670-BFC9-A5F91518A5FF/ISISMembersReturningToTheUK#:~:text=About%2020%25%20of%20those%20900,and%20Syria%20and%20since%20returned.

This article is over five years old but interesting:

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/23/number-of-women-and-children-joining-isis-significantly-underestimated

MF5 saw something that none of us will ever see. From my understanding it was from their advice she was stopped. Anyone a danger to our country should be removed or blocked. I don’t think we should be paying for her court fees at present 8 million of tax payers money. Has my gran used to say you make your bed you lie in it. So for you saying we should let her back as she was 15 does that mean anyone 15 who kills etc should be allowed free after all they only 15. You know the difference between right and wrong at her age so no we should shut the door on her

Foxie sorry for being unclear. I wasn’t calling your assessment ill informed

11:17Luckygirl3

This young woman made some very bad choices as a teenager - as indeed do many of us - and is paying a high price.

That's an understatement, bad choices made as a teenager ha, well I don't think I ever thought of joining a terrorist group, did you?

So for you saying we should let her back as she was 15 does that mean anyone 15 who kills etc should be allowed free after all they only 15. You know the difference between right and wrong at her age so no we should shut the door on her
I'm not saying to let her back, but yes, I would say that anyone aged 15 who kills should be rehabilitated if possible and freed if the rehabilitation is successful. 15 year olds are children, and as such are not able to make life-changing decisions with maturity. That is why they are treated differently under law, and not allowed to do things that adults do.

As for 'the difference between right and wrong', even most adults would agree that that is almost always debatable.

It’s interesting that apparently many other people were allowed to re enter the UK after ISIS collapsed, and I do recall seeing something about this on news programmes at the time. However that piece of information only makes me wonder what the security services know about this woman that means they won’t allow her to return to Britain.