Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

However, you wouldn't succeed in getting your employer to address you as "My Lord" or "My Lady" or have them charged with a hate crime if they failed to do so.
Very true. There are, AFAIK, no other areas where people can simply 'identify' themselves into social groups to which they do not belong. There are loose subcultural groups that are about 'presentation', so it is possible to 'become' a goth, or a punk, or the modern equivalent by wearing the right clothes, listening to particular music and so on, but otherwise there are barriers of qualifications or ethnicity or until recently, sex.

The implication that being a women is on the same level as being a goth, but you have to have passed examinations to call yourself a doctor or a bus driver or a plumber is insulting.

A minor by definition of 'minor' does not have the right to full personhood but must for some decisions do as she is told by those adults who for good reason have authority over her actions.

Many adults have such hazy ideas about gender that they need to be ordered to learn about why they feel they should be another sex or another gender. It would be wrong for a doctor to prescribe sex changing hormones simply because the child or the adult requested hormone treatment.

However a child can be allowed to wear unconventional apparel when doing so will not harm her or his prospects.

Kids often dress up for fun, but life is not about play it's mostly about work. They need to know how they should present themself for a specified job interview e.g. as a teacher or as a scaffolding erector, and so forth.

It's fashionable and misleading to believe we should be permitted to express ourselves on all occasions.

A law against 'hate speech' is necessary to protect people from verbal abuse who may already be suffering a crisis of self identity and loneliness.

Doodledog

*However, you wouldn't succeed in getting your employer to address you as "My Lord" or "My Lady" or have them charged with a hate crime if they failed to do so.*
Very true. There are, AFAIK, no other areas where people can simply 'identify' themselves into social groups to which they do not belong. There are loose subcultural groups that are about 'presentation', so it is possible to 'become' a goth, or a punk, or the modern equivalent by wearing the right clothes, listening to particular music and so on, but otherwise there are barriers of qualifications or ethnicity or until recently, sex.

The implication that being a women is on the same level as being a goth, but you have to have passed examinations to call yourself a doctor or a bus driver or a plumber is insulting.

I think you are the only person who widens this out to include sub-cultural groups perhaps because you realise there is a real flaw in the arguments you present against trans identities.

It is quite simple. If someone in a work place says they are Mr X and asks to be addressed as "he" you have no right to question that identity. You address him as he asks. He may be a birth man, he may be a transman. He is a man. Anything else is his personal business.

I await this being now replied to with comments about transwomen. The same view applies. Because quite honestly how many colleagues have ever proved their sex to you?

This is the first time I have mentioned subcultures, so I don't know on what your hypothesis is based, unless you have a database of people's pets for the purpose of cross reference?

I don't 'realise' that there is a flaw in my arguments. I see them as perfectly valid. Please stop telling me what I think, and what my motives are?

While you're here, would you please answer some of the questions in my post upthread? Or are you ignoring them because you realise that your arguments have no basis whatsoever?

Posts, not pets

Doodledog you have as much chance of getting answers from Glorianny as I have which is precisely zero…

I know, but where there's life there's hope.

What I want to know if why SOME transwomen are so vicious, threatening, overpowering and generally frightening. They do nothing for their cause. Why can’t they just transition and get on with their lives.

NanKate

What I want to know if why SOME transwomen are so vicious, threatening, overpowering and generally frightening. They do nothing for their cause. Why can’t they just transition and get on with their lives.

That as they say is the million dollar question…

I think that it shows that a lot of the trans agenda (as opposed to people who genuinely believe that they are of the opposite sex) is not, for TRAs, about 'living as' women, but about redefining what women are, which is why there is so much resistance. It's misogyny writ large.

IMO Nankate because they don't want to be women. The characteristics you referred too are seldom found in women which makes them for me all the more disturbing when they're exhibited by men who claim to 'feel' like a woman and want to live like one; whatever that means.

MayBee70

Imo it isn’t a personal obsession but is the result of knowing what it’s like to be abused and to be afraid of someone? If I eg was alone in a ladies toilet late at night and a man who identified as a woman came in I’d feel both uncomfortable and afraid.

Why would you?

Many many men identify as women and would not dream of abusing a woman or deliberately set out to make them feel uncomfortable.

The answer to public loos is supply mixed and women and men only.

No one should be scared or uncomfortable, neither biological women nor men identifying as women.

I’m on the fence with JKR, but I absolutely agree that legislation should protect ALL.

Cossy
The answer to public loos is supply mixed and women and men only.
That has been suggested, but where do you suppose the TIM who cause the problems would choose to go?
Posters who claim you cannot tell, ignore the fact that those TIM who cause the problems make it clear that they are male and that they have the right to be in female restrooms. It’s another example of their You must accept our lies or else!!

GrannyGravy13

NanKate

What I want to know if why SOME transwomen are so vicious, threatening, overpowering and generally frightening. They do nothing for their cause. Why can’t they just transition and get on with their lives.

That as they say is the million dollar question…

I think it comes from the same basis all prejudice does-"My ideas are right and I don't have to listen to others"
There's an awful lot of it about and it isn't limited to transwomen.

Anyone waiting for an answer can wait.
I don't propose to answer anyone who has posted anything which tells me what I think, believe or say, refers to me as misogynistic or as not supporting women.
I'm tired of the accusations and hypocrisy. I've tried to be reasonable but honestly the list of women you don't want to listen to is steadily increasing.

Just take care, Martin Neismoller warned about not supporting others. The Christian right wing have chosen transpeople as their first target because they are easier to challenge. You may not realise it but the forces behind condemning transpeople are against all non-conformity. Trans is just the first step.

In Ohio a Bill about High school sport says anyone accused of being transgender must submit to a genital inspection.
www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/christian-rights-mounting-attacks-trans-youth-rcna65323

All rights are fragile, trans rights are especially so.
Now I'm off this thread. Have fun

Well I suppose that's one way of not answering perfectly reasonable questions and I do love the irony Glorianny bearing in mind your posts telling others what they think, believe or say, telling those who disagree with you that they don't support the trans community and that we only support some women.

All rights are fragile, trans rights are especially so I disagree because there aren't any rights that other sections of society have, whether they're in the majority or the minority, that the trans community don't also have.

I'm convinced I'm right because of the course of all the threads we've had here on GN on anything trans, the question has been
asked time and time again and not once has anyone informed us what rights the the trans community are being denied, that aren't denied to anyone else.

While you're here, would you please answer some of the questions in my post upthread? Or are you ignoring them because you realise that your arguments have no basis whatsoever?

Well you've got your answer Doodledog. I suspect your second question is the truth, just like the request for a list of the rights that transpeople don't have couldn't be answered.

The Christian right wing have chosen transpeople as their first target because they are easier to challenge. You may not realise it but the forces behind condemning transpeople are against all non-conformity. Trans is just the first step.

Who are the Christian right wing please? Which groups or country are you meaning?

I have no idea who they are. But I dont doubt that some people go beyond the teachings of the Bible, into their own ideals.
Twas always thus.
It is talked about in the last Book of the Bible, Revelation.

Lots of left wing lesbians I think.

For me, on this thread, there has not been enough distinction made between those transwomen who are going quietly about thier life, not meaning harm to other people[I may not agree with what they are choosing to do, but that is their business]

and those transwomen who do mean harm to others.

To me, they are two distinct groups.

They are all Male. We dont with regard to female spaces make distinction between nice men and horrible men.

Galazy. No. Because only people born female should be in them.

I do feel sorry for some people born men sometimes, as weaker built men in particular or even medium built men, are sometimes scared of the heavier built man.
That never occured to me until I met my DH. I didnt realise there was such a thing occuring.

Not sure if I have now gone wildly off point or not.

And that’s how to do it Glorianny!👏👏👏
If you can’t answer questions because answering would mean you have to admit something is true, then leave the thread.

fancy that
Galaxy’s post explains it perfectly.

I’m not aware of anyone on here who says all TIM are the same, except in the biological sense, that they’re male.

The problem is that those TW who have hit the headlines for
- cheating their way into female sport to deny females the right to win,
- lying their way into female safe places including toilets, changing rooms and hospital wards,
- claiming awards that say for example *best female award,
- suddenly claiming to be TW when they’ve been arrested for rape or violence against others and demanding to be placed in female prisons,
- threatening violence against females and their families as IW regularly does whilst lying that he’s a woman,
are the TIM that people see exemplifying what TIM are.
It’s unfair that those TIM you mention are categorised in the same class as those I’ve described, but read Glorianny’s endless claims that you can’t tell the difference and you’ll hopefully understand why Galaxy’s post is so correct.

Is there a bingo prize that goes higher than the jackpot? If so, the flounce has just got me the hat trick . It's all on this thread - the DARVO, the insults, the tropes, the accusations and now the flounce.

Yes I agree fancy that, men are at risk of Male violence for many reasons, DH is tall but would not know what to do in a fight (one of the reasons I like him) he once described a situation where he was cornered in a deserted bus station by a violent drunk and it sounded utterly horrific.