Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

Oh gosh. Glad he was ok?

He rather ironically (on this thread) escaped and hid in the toilet.

Just take care, Martin Neismoller warned about not supporting others
What a shame some of the impact of the flounce has been sabotaged by getting his name wrong too (like so much else)
It’s Pastor Martin Niemöller

Doodledog

Is there a bingo prize that goes higher than the jackpot? If so, the flounce has just got me the hat trick . It's all on this thread - the DARVO, the insults, the tropes, the accusations and now the flounce.

B I N G O -- well done you!

You wrote a wonderful explanation and won the Bingo!

Glorianny

Apparently I haven't said what rights transpeople are denied.
Well read the thread

Transmen have to comply with any designation you decide. The fact that they have cervixes but don't want to be called women can't be recognised. The fact that they bleed can't be recognised. The fact that they give birth can't be recognised.

But you have not indicated what rights are denied to transpeople - what you have done is suggest what rights you think people on this thread would refuse them.

And, as Rosie51 indicated - transmen will know that they are women regardless of how they identify.

Medical information brochures / leaflets, etc, containing general information for public consumption, are generic and therefore not aimed specifically at the individual - therefore there is no need to be sensitive about gender identity if the subject matter is related to biological sex.

As far as the medical profession is concerned - once you are admitted on a personal level into the system, one of the first questions you will be asked is, "how do you like to be addressed", and it is then that you can indicate how you identify, which will be respected, because it will be written on your medical notes. At that point you become an individual. And it is at that point that the medical 'language' can be accommodated to your specific gender need / identity.

You say, frequently, that we view transwomen as the wrong sort of women an accusation which is somewhat meaningless in the context of what we are debating, but it suits your purpose in attempting to paint us as bigots. If we do not accept that transwomen are women, then they cannot be the 'wrong sort' because we do not accept that they are women. That is the logic.

And again, as Rosie51 points out, the descriptive, women, will cease to have any meaning whatsoever if any man - at any time - based on whatever motivates him to do so, decides that he is one. The word, woman will be so mobile that it really will be meaningless. And this will be because a minority of men have appropriated it to accommodate their feelings.

So much anger and hate here . Very sad . Maybe if posters watch and read about the trans population and what they go through there would be more understanding . You certainly can’t think it would be safe for a trans female to be in a men’s toilet or trans male in a woman’s toilet . In most cases you really won’t know the difference . I follow a few on social media to get their insight . I do think Rowling is creating more hate with her remarks .

Syracute I don't see hate. Where do you get the impression we don't read about or see transpeople? Have you seen videos of the protests at every Let Women Speak event? Have you read the placards that are held aloft and heard the screamed chants? If you haven't then maybe you should check some out. You can't really think that a sign saying "Terfs can choke on my girldick" or the ones held up outside the Scottish Parliament saying 'Kill Terfs" are acceptable and deserve our understanding?

What about those males who cheat females out of sporting awards? Or those male sex offenders whose crimes are recorded under the woman column because they say they are women. Don't you have any sympathy or understanding for a woman being compelled to refer to her rapist as 'she' and "her penis'? My sympathy is completely with a woman who is figuratively raped for a second time by the legal system. That makes me justifiably angry and should any decent human being.

I do have sympathy for any individual with genuine gender dysphoria, but that's a tiny number and doesn't include the much greater number of men wanting to publicly indulge their fetishes.

Syracute

So much anger and hate here . Very sad . Maybe if posters watch and read about the trans population and what they go through there would be more understanding . You certainly can’t think it would be safe for a trans female to be in a men’s toilet or trans male in a woman’s toilet . In most cases you really won’t know the difference . I follow a few on social media to get their insight . I do think Rowling is creating more hate with her remarks .

Where is the hate on this thread?

If it’s not safe for a male-bodied person to be in a male loo, how is it safe to have males in a women’s loo? It is men who carry out the vast amount of assaults, so why do you think that it should be up to women to find ways to give them what they want.

The reason men and women have separate spaces in the first place was to protect women from predatory males. Most men are not predators, but we can’t tell which are which. Now we are being told that we have to allow males into women’s spaces and if we don’t, we are being hateful. Again, we aren’t saying that all transwomen are predators, but how are we supposed to know which is which?

Syracute

So much anger and hate here . Very sad . Maybe if posters watch and read about the trans population and what they go through there would be more understanding . You certainly can’t think it would be safe for a trans female to be in a men’s toilet or trans male in a woman’s toilet . In most cases you really won’t know the difference . I follow a few on social media to get their insight . I do think Rowling is creating more hate with her remarks .

Where is the hatred on this thread.

I’m not going to repeat the carefully considered responses from Rosie 51 and Doodledog. You should read them again if you’re still confused.

But before you talk about hatred Syracute

Have you seen the threats to JKR and her family?

Have you been at a meeting where TRA and TIM have threatened violence and hurled abuse at females?

Have you read the lies and threats that spew forth from India Willoughby’s mouth every time he speaks?

Have you been a patient on a female hospital ward, because you’re already traumatised by a man, where a TIM, visibly demonstrating his maleness demands very vocally to be treated as a woman, despite the fact that his presence is further harming the other patients?

On here, all you can have read is continued condemnation of the actions of a few TIM who are willing to harm females and damage the reputation of any trans who don’t deserve to be regarded in that way.

Saying you can change sex is a lie. Using that lie to harm others is unacceptable . . . for most people.

That’s not hatred, that’s truth.

Syracute

So much anger and hate here . Very sad . Maybe if posters watch and read about the trans population and what they go through there would be more understanding . You certainly can’t think it would be safe for a trans female to be in a men’s toilet or trans male in a woman’s toilet . In most cases you really won’t know the difference . I follow a few on social media to get their insight . I do think Rowling is creating more hate with her remarks .

With many other discussions people are capable of self reflection and would consider why reading the thread made you feel this way and work to address that.

Sadly you will get the same justifications vilifying trans people in general and absolutely no responsibility taken for the harm caused by the way opinions are expressed here

VS
Sadly you will get the same justifications vilifying trans people in general and absolutely no responsibility taken for the harm caused by the way opinions are expressed here

Sadly you will get the same justifications vilifying those who try to protect females specifically from those TIM who harm them by cheating, lying, threatening and actual violence.

And absolutely no responsibility taken by those who refuse to condemn those actions for the harm caused, either to females or to trans people in general by the way they show that on here.

With many other discussions people are capable of self reflection and would consider why reading the thread made you feel this way and work to address that.
Good own goal VS, because

Those who are incapable of self reflection about the harm they are encouraging, by pretending TIM issues aren’t caused by some TIM themselves and their TRA supporters, are also those who refuse to work to improve their own understanding and acknowledgement of the damage caused by those two groups..

VS if you seriously believe that people should alter their considered beliefs because someone on the internet doesn’t agree with them or feels that they come from a place of prejudice, why haven’t you changed your own? Being told that women should put the feelings of men ahead of their own and those of their daughters is upsetting to me, and seems to come from a place of hatred for (or at least a lack of consideration for) women. Have you reflected on that?

At some point grown ups have to take responsibility for their own viewpoints. It's very important to listen to views different to yours and to also think, sometimes that results in changing your mind. However it's quite odd to be in a constant state of 'flux' because someone holds a different view to you. So if I 'self reflect' on what a poster says and change my view because of 'feelings' do I then self reflect after the next poster agrees with me. Its particularly difficult to self reflect on a stance that has been wrong every step of the way. The cass report is out this week, perhaps people will self reflect on that.

Asking women to self reflect is actually trying to undermine their beliefs. It is a ploy used by controlling men to gain the upper hand.
I won't compromise my own beliefs because someone on GN tells me to and I believe that a minority of trans women are trying to make changes to the detriment of all women.

AGAA4

Asking women to self reflect is actually trying to undermine their beliefs. It is a ploy used by controlling men to gain the upper hand.
I won't compromise my own beliefs because someone on GN tells me to and I believe that a minority of trans women are trying to make changes to the detriment of all women.

👏👏👏

There isn't actually much point trying to reason with those who see only hate in the thread. They are looking through their "I expect there to be hate, so I can't see anything else" specs.

They should try the experiment of counting how many times posters have used the words "some transwomen" or "some transactivists".

The Cass report will soon be with us

Elegran

There isn't actually much point trying to reason with those who see only hate in the thread. They are looking through their "I expect there to be hate, so I can't see anything else" specs.

They should try the experiment of counting how many times posters have used the words "some transwomen" or "some transactivists".

It’s similar in its projection to those who call others pathetic, imply that they are racist and so on, and then accuse them of making personal attacks. Or wrongly claiming that people have no answer to points they’ve raised, whilst themselves simultaneously ignoring direct questions or point-blank refusing to answer them for years.

The self reflect suggestion used by you VS is a passive aggressive tactic, but I doubt you would recognise or accept it as such.
Suggesting that if I self reflect I would decide to believe a lie or accept the behaviour of some TIM as not being detrimental to women is as ridiculous. Would your self reflection lead you to accept that a lie is wrong however often it is repeated or understand that if that lie harms females and many trans too, it is doubly wrong?
I’d be interested to know.

I see no hatred here Syacrute so perhaps you could give specific examples of the hatred you have seen.

There is no vilifying trans people in general VS, perhaps you could give specific examples too.

Like you AGAA4 I wont compromise my beliefs because someone disagrees with them or tells me that I should because of unfounded and so far unsubstantiated accusations of hate.

I agree Galaxy that It's particularly difficult to self reflect on a stance that has been wrong every step of the way.

Like I said upthread, the majority are being asked to accept that science and biology are wrong and that it is possible to change one’s sex.

This is blatantly wrong and impossible at this moment in time.

I have absolutely no problem with people living their lives as they wish, but do have a problem being part of 51% of the worlds population having my sex and all that is stands for eroded by misogyny.

VioletSky

Syracute

So much anger and hate here . Very sad . Maybe if posters watch and read about the trans population and what they go through there would be more understanding . You certainly can’t think it would be safe for a trans female to be in a men’s toilet or trans male in a woman’s toilet . In most cases you really won’t know the difference . I follow a few on social media to get their insight . I do think Rowling is creating more hate with her remarks .

With many other discussions people are capable of self reflection and would consider why reading the thread made you feel this way and work to address that.

Sadly you will get the same justifications vilifying trans people in general and absolutely no responsibility taken for the harm caused by the way opinions are expressed here

VioletSky

Sadly you will get the same justifications vilifying trans people in general and absolutely no responsibility taken for the harm caused by the way opinions are expressed here

You know jolly well VS that Rosie51, Doodledog, Mollygo, Elegran, Iam64, others and myself are NOT vilifying trans people in general. That is just a spiteful accusation which you took the opportunity to make because another poster made similar assertions about anger and hate and you jumped under her umbrella.

You never address the particular aspects that we are debating - just make generalised observations about personal responsibility and other vague references about why can't we all treat everyone with respect, or self reflect.

Honestly VS it's tiresome having to keep reminding you that we are discussing a particular aspect of transgenderism, not the principle itself. We know that people identify in different ways, some of us have experienced ourselves the gulf between what society expects of us - traditionally - as women, and how we determine ourselves. We know that neither sex should be compelled to behave stereotypically in order to satisfy someone else's idea of what a man or woman is. This is not what we are discussing, we are discussing one very important aspect of transgenderism - and you know what that is without me having to labour the point yet again. We are not questioning transgenderism as a principle.

So I really wish you'd stop these ill-defined claims about us. It definitely is a bit passive-aggressive and it evokes a response out of sheer frustration, and then off we go again and the thread then becomes about how we are attacking you when, in fact, what we are doing is defending ourselves against your continual goady prompting to examine and 'work' on our collective conscience.

Well said Dickens although I do think that tiresome is an understatement.

What Dickens said. These threads never get anywhere really, do they?

No. As I said way upthread, however well they start, they end up being like a choreographed dance, with the same old tropes, insults and diversionary tactics brought into play every time.

It's like plaiting fog.