Minister for Women and Equalities

The bottom line is no one can be a “biological” woman or man, unless they are born such.

Cossy

The bottom line is no one can be a “biological” woman or man, unless they are born such.

Got to admit its a bit worrying though going off previous expressed views by Starmer that he thinks women can have penises and Lammy that men can grow a cervix.

Cossy

TerriBull

Oh yes Rosie Duffield our dream Minister for Women that would allay a lot of fears. I don't think the LP should under estimate how many women feel so strongly on these matters, we are 50% of the electorate, ignoring majority wishes will not bode well.

Lots of women clearly voted for all parties, so it’s clearly not the fear of ALL women.

I’m more concerned about women who voted for the Trump-like Reform party, their stance on women is appalling!

I'm one for whom the issue is very low down on my agenda.

I do agree we mustn't anticipate, this is a brand new administration and they deserve a fair crack of the whip, we need to remain open minded. I hope they will respect the things that matter, our safety, our dignity and a fair playing field and the freedom not to be co-erced into situations where we are uncomfortable.

Doodledog

Maddie, again, I have not changed my stance. I have never said there is a half way position, and that remains my opinion on the matter. I am more tolerant than some about fully transitioned transwomen accessing spaces, but I still don't think they are women, and understand the belief that they shouldn't be an exception.

This feels like one of those situations where people just aren't listening to what others are saying because of party politics.

What I am saying is not that I will accept less from Labour, but that after a couple of days I wouldn't have expected anyone to have announced, never mind implemented policies, and I see no alternative to 'wait and see'. I am not the type to criticise anyone for what they haven't even announced, and I did criticise both Lammy and Dodds when they said the things they did. I see carping on about it now as obstructive to the change in policy that I hope to see, and I am not going to do that. I will be 'on the case' if AL makes a mess of things, but I am not going to push her into a corner at this stage and risk what we have fought for for so long.

Currently: The Labour Party supports biological women only spaces: Starmer made this clear in one of the head to head leadership debates on 29th June. On question time position on biological sex clear
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/rosie-duffield-tony-blair-holyrood-basingstoke-canterbury-b2564637.html

also see the Telegraph on use of single sex toilets
www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/01/labour-frontbencher-refuses-to-answer-trans-toilet-question/

The Labour Party does not agree with self identification, it agrees with GRA in order to change gender ID.

The Labour Party accepts the Cass report.
More bits and pieces, like within other parties things are still under discussion.

I note that Hilary Cass has been given a seat in the HoL, which is excellent. It's great that she will be able to use her position to influence legislation.

Before anyone gloats, I am fully aware that it was Sunak wot dunnit (), but I've never seen this as a left/right split, but as a women's/men's rights one.

Well said Doodledog. I’m also with Terribull on the subject of Women’s Rights.

I wear my suffragette brooch at WI as a statement, even though National WI will not protect biological women and did not allow members to vote on the inclusion of transwomen in the WI. They insist transwomen are ‘women’ when I say they are transwomen who I wish no ill will to. 3035 members of the WI have asked for a vote and they are still being ignored.

This is a good example of what a poster alluded to above, which is that only part of the debate its within political parties.

Its out there in the community and people have and will debate accordingly.

Another example is a key one - on whether trans women can compete with women in sport. Its actually not in the hands of political parties, but in national and international sports bodies.

I agree with your last paragraph Wyllow, I'm thinking in particular of a recent case of nurses complaining about sharing a changing/locker room with a transwoman. I'm not trying to conflate this with any Labour policy as it happened before they took office. The nurses stated a feeling of disquiet as fully intact trans woman tended to engage them in conversation whilst they were in a state of undress. When they complained they were told, "use the toilets to get changed then" which seems to be the default position certainly offered to sportswomen in the US when they have said they feel uncomfortable changing in the presence of a trans woman who is physically male. It's almost as if the request they are making is bizarre and somehow outrageous. Turn back the clock a few years, before the western world went down this insane path, and that would have been the complete opposite.

Lots of women clearly voted for all parties, so it’s clearly not the fear of ALL women. I’m more concerned about women who voted for the Trump-like Reform party, their stance on women is appalling

I agree!

The matter of how to protect female safe spaces comes up often on GN. Usually replied to by saying it’s up to the females to complain.
Two things I’d like to see more information about, following Starmer’s speech.
First the one mentioned by TerriBull above.
If females report males in changing rooms/toilets etc , what action will Labour take to support the females.
What action will Labour put in place to protect females from having to report males wrongfully entering female spaces?

Yes, it is Reform policy to abolish the Equalities Act (ie for both Women and Racial minorities) - I've just checked.

You can put more specific guidelines in place under the Equality Act, but it's still up to the institutions to carry them out, and I can't honestly see a way round women having to report incidents under any sort of legislation?

Yes, it is Reform policy to abolish the Equalities Act (ie for both Women and Racial minorities) - I've just checked

God help us all then😱

Reform aren’t in power and unlikely ever to be so, therefore irrelevant.

Wyllow3

You can put more specific guidelines in place under the Equality Act, but it's still up to the institutions to carry them out, and I can't honestly see a way round women having to report incidents under any sort of legislation?

I don't think it should be up to women to come up with solutions to what is a male problem. That is a cop-out that is never suggested in other areas of law. I'm not sure that drafting legislation should ever be a single sex task, but in this case the demands for women to solve the problem always come with the caveat that the only acceptable solutions will be those agreeing that TWAW, which of course they are not, so it's impossible.

The important thing is that everyone knows their rights and responsibilities, and these should apply across the board. For this to work there needs to be proper advice from the government (something the last government never provided) as otherwise everything becomes negotiable depending on venue, and nobody - whether that's the transpeople, the staff or the complainants - knows how to behave.

Sorry, but anyone expecting a Labour Gov to actually be better than Con. Or Lib Dem on this issue is probably acting in a naive fashion.
All parties have spouted similar things.

When does saying what you think become 'spouting'?

I think you have misread my post Doodledog

My post mentions political parties, so therefore I was referring to pp, not individuals.
If I haven't made that clear enough, I apologise.

Either way, my question applies though.

What do you mean by 'spouting', and how does it differ from just saying something? It's not a word I hear very often.

spouting

pejorative put downs without actually offering any solutions to this ongoing and very complex issue: attempts to derail discussion.

I see. And if the aforementioned 'spouting' is not done by individuals, who is doing it? A party can't 'spout' can it?

maddyone

As Yvette Cooper apparently has got a trans child, she clearly wouldn’t have been a good choice for a Women’s Minister. Annaliese Dodds certainly isn’t. Reading through this thread has made me see that the decision to appoint her probably was deliberate, given her views. It takes the heat off Starmer I suppose, and that’s probably the thinking behind it.

Doodledog I think people are now saying wait and see. That wasn’t what anyone was saying before the election. As far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t matter which party are in government. Everyone from Gransnetters to the PM should know and acknowledge
that a woman is a person who is biologically a woman. There’s no halfway (except for the tiny minority who are intersex, but we’re not discussing them) because a woman is a woman. Trans people need to be treated with the same respect and dignity that should be afforded to everyone else, but that does not mean competing in women’s sports, or using women’s changing rooms unless fully transformed by surgery, or being placed into women’s wards in hospital unless fully transformed by surgery. I didn’t have much time for Sunak, but he was clear about what a woman is. Putting this issue into the hands of Annaliese Dodds is fudging the issue. It should have been made clear what a woman is a long time ago, and not allowed to run on and on. And no, I don’t want to wait several months or longer for AD to decide what she thinks a woman is (although clearly as she is one, she ought to know.)

J K Rowling is fighting the good fight on women’s spaces. Good for her . She hasn’t fudged the issue.

I agree with all of this maddyone.

Not trying to derail Willow3 far from it.

No political party had anything of note to say before the election on this issue, and what little was spoken didnt sound that positive to my ears.

Horse bolted and door come to mind now.

Doodledog I dont agree with your post of
14.36.
In this case you are the individual, I was not including you or what you said.
I thought it was clear the pejorative term 'spouting' was used against all the political parties who Imo have extremely similar positions with regards to this issue.

Wyllow3

You can put more specific guidelines in place under the Equality Act, but it's still up to the institutions to carry them out, and I can't honestly see a way round women having to report incidents under any sort of legislation?

Sadly, I can’t either, other than by relying on the honesty of biological males to stay out of female safe spaces and it seems that’s too much to ask of a minority of TW.

A start could be made by making it clear that the government absolutely uphold the fact that you can’t change sex, and that transwomen are not women and transmen are not men.
Follow that up by making it a specific offence to claim to be the sex you are not in inappropriate places, e.g. male in women’s sports, female safe spaces, places where women’s (AHF) support has been requested, taking awards that have “woman/women in the title, or events specifically for lesbians.

Since the majority of trans do not do any of those things they could hope to live or, as those that posters on GN have mentioned, continue to live in peace.