Labour gambling with public safety

DamaskRose

midgey

It has been clearly stated that prisoners who are violent in any way will not be included so I don’t really see the problem.

Just this and Maizie’s comment at 17.30!

Well, actually no!
It says in today’s papers that some prisoners who have been violent will be released early, if their sentences were four years or less.

The new justice secretary seems to be going OTT with her rhetoric over this, saying mobs could be rampaging around looting blah blah unless they do this.Seems to be about scaring people so they won’t mind so much about reduced sentences.

The criminal system is facing total collapse in the U.K. because of the failure of the previous government to its job.

What Ms Mahmood said

She described the policy as “the only way to avert disaster”, saying if prisons were to run out of places, courts would be forced to delay jailing offenders and police unable to arrest dangerous criminals – a crisis that would leave the public at risk.
“If we fail to act now, we face the collapse of the criminal justice system. And a total breakdown of law and order,” she said at a press conference at HMP Five Wells in Northamptonshire.
From September, the government will temporarily reduce the proportion of certain custodial sentences served in prison from 50% to 40% in England and Wales. It says it will implement safeguards and exemptions to keep the public safe and clear release plans to manage offenders safely in the community.
Sentences for serious violent offences of four years or more and sexual offences will be automatically excluded. In a distinction from the end of custody supervised licence scheme (ECSL), the early release of offenders in prison for crimes related to domestic abuse will also be excluded. This will include:
Stalking offences.
Controlling or coercive behaviours in an intimate or family relationship.
Non-fatal strangulation and suffocation.
Breach of restraining order, non-molestation order, and domestic abuse protection order.

She said: “When prisons are full, violence rises – putting prison officers on the frontline at risk. When no cells are available, suspects cannot be held in custody. This means vanloads of dangerous people circling the country, with nowhere to go. The police would have to use their cells as a prison overflow, keeping officers off the streets. Soon, the courts would grind to a halt, unable to hold trials.
“With officers unable to act, criminals could do whatever they want, without consequence. We could see looters running amok, smashing in windows, robbing shops and setting neighbourhoods alight. In short, if we fail to act now, we face the collapse of the criminal justice system. And a total breakdown of law and order.”

This is a pragmatic response to inheriting a prison and justice system which is in crisis. There's always risks of reoffending even when prisoners have served a full sentence especially if we have an understaffed probation service which labour has also inherited.

At least we all know now why Sunak called the election so suddenly:

1) Thames Water on verge of collapse
2) Rwanda plan not stopping the boats
3) Only a few weeks worth of places left in prisons.

The realisation of having to deal with these immediate issues made Sunak think, “sod it, I’d rather stand out in the pouring rain and call an election than try to sort out this sh**!” Let Labour do it!!!

To address one question raised by nicenanny, there are plans to build new prisons. Not because we need or aim to lock more people up but because some of our prisons aren’t fit for purpose.
We lock far too many people up. Other Northern European and Scandinavian countries imprison fewer, have good community sentences with the result their re-offending rates are less than ours.
Not complicated is it.

What we’re seeing, unfolding in front of our eyes, is the culmination of 14 years of Conservative austerity and privatisation.

Iam64

To address one question raised by nicenanny, there are plans to build new prisons. Not because we need or aim to lock more people up but because some of our prisons aren’t fit for purpose.
We lock far too many people up. Other Northern European and Scandinavian countries imprison fewer, have good community sentences with the result their re-offending rates are less than ours.
Not complicated is it.

Which other countries? Do you have a source for this claim?

In this country we send more people to prison than any country in Europe - except Turkey! Not a thing to be proud of. You can even be sent to prison for not paying your council tax.

People are sent to prison for non violent first offences which should be dealt with by other means. We do not make sufficient use of community service in this country.

Nicenanny3

Well Labour are talking about building a million plus new homes, why aren't they talking about building more prisons?

We have a huge extension to a prison near us that is in the process of being built.
It takes a lot of planning and public consultation to build a prison.
Perhaps you have a field at he bottom of your garden where the government could put a prison, overnight. Maximum security of course.

Norway has the lowest level of recidivism in the world, below is an interesting research article on the approach which is basically much more about making prison as much like life outside prison as possible which a focus on rehabilitation. This wouldn't go down well with those who see prison as purely a punishment but it seems to work effectively and would be cheaper in the long run than the endless cycle of reoffending that the UK has.

digitalcommons.coastal.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=bridges

Sparklefizz

Iam64

To address one question raised by nicenanny, there are plans to build new prisons. Not because we need or aim to lock more people up but because some of our prisons aren’t fit for purpose.
We lock far too many people up. Other Northern European and Scandinavian countries imprison fewer, have good community sentences with the result their re-offending rates are less than ours.
Not complicated is it.

Which other countries? Do you have a source for this claim?

This was discussed and sources given on the other prison threads. You can google rates of imprisoment in Europe per head of population, rates of recidivism, rates of whole life sentences, what happens in prisons (ie programmes designed to reduce recidivism and so on) The Netherlands is a good comparison.

It's another Tory mess up and the Daily Wail is trying to blame Labour. If the Tories hadn't privatised the Probation Service and kowtowed to the 'hang em and flog em' brigade we might have had a penal system that rehabilitated prisoners rather than the useless system we have now. Many of those incarcerated could be educated and trained back into the workforce.

Grantanow

It's another Tory mess up and the Daily Wail is trying to blame Labour. If the Tories hadn't privatised the Probation Service and kowtowed to the 'hang em and flog em' brigade we might have had a penal system that rehabilitated prisoners rather than the useless system we have now. Many of those incarcerated could be educated and trained back into the workforce.

I think Starmer hinted at that for the future - so with luck we will get back to a system that concentrates on rehabilitation rather than throw away the key.

No one isgoing to be releasing murderers, so tragicthough Zara Aleena's death was, it is irrelevant to a discussion about prison releases.

The Dutch managed to reduce their prison population by almost half by treaating the problems that got people into prison in the first place,; drug addiction, mental health problems, poor education. Their crime rate also fell.

That is what is wanted in the UK, not more prisons that just breed recidivists

LizzieDrip

What we’re seeing, unfolding in front of our eyes, is the culmination of 14 years of Conservative austerity and privatisation.

Well, not really. Tony Blair faced similar problems. But we seem to forget this. Or maybe just ignore it and hope nobody remembers.

There were riots, lots of articles about moral decline to be found if you care to look.

The Prime Minister (Blair) repeatedly told MPs today that he regretted having to release thousands of criminals early to ease the prison overcrowding crisis.

But, at his penultimate Commons question time, he said the action was necessary to free up space.

More than 25,000 criminals will be handed a "get out of jail free" card in a desperate attempt to solve the overcrowding crisis.

I assume that the released prisoners will be monitored.

The trouble is that the Tories have also run down the probation service so badly that it is barely functioning.

Whitewavemark2

I assume that the released prisoners will be monitored.

The trouble is that the Tories have also run down the probation service so badly that it is barely functioning.

And Labour started that as well, WWM2!

In 2004, Tony Blair’s Labour government accepted a report that recommended what was called “greater contestability” using “providers of… probation from across the public, private or voluntary sectors”. In 2007, probation boards began to be transformed into probation trusts

Rekarie

Whitewavemark2

I assume that the released prisoners will be monitored.

The trouble is that the Tories have also run down the probation service so badly that it is barely functioning.

And Labour started that as well, WWM2!

*In 2004, Tony Blair’s Labour government accepted a report that recommended what was called “greater contestability” using “providers of… probation from across the public, private or voluntary sectors”. In 2007, probation boards began to be transformed into probation trusts*

I’m not sure if your point?

We are talking about the existential crises that the head of the civil service considered sufficiently urgent to be one of the first things that was brought to the new Prime ministers attention.

The reason it is in such an appalling state is because if the total failure on the part of the previous government. Their MPs have admitted that it was a complete failure on the Tories part.

Rekarie

Whitewavemark2

I assume that the released prisoners will be monitored.

The trouble is that the Tories have also run down the probation service so badly that it is barely functioning.

And Labour started that as well, WWM2!

*In 2004, Tony Blair’s Labour government accepted a report that recommended what was called “greater contestability” using “providers of… probation from across the public, private or voluntary sectors”. In 2007, probation boards began to be transformed into probation trusts*

Did he cut funding, too?

A very significant cause of the deterioration of all public services was the swingeing cuts to the public sector, post 2010, by the tories, ostensibly for the'austerity' they claimed was needed to restore the UK economy, but really to implement their 'small state' ideology.

Most commentators seem to agree that it was Grayling's complete privatisation of the probation service that did the real damage...

My point is that the probation service was in a mess before the Conservatives. Labour started the privatisation.

Please don't think I believe that the last government was any good. Totally opposite is true. An utter shambles and I was extremely happy that Labour won this time.

But surely we should live in the here and now. Labour look like they're actually up to this job.

To constantly say that the previous government are to blame for everything is a bit pointless. Especially when it's easy to find out that not everything that went wrong started under the Tories.

I think that you will find that the blame is emanating from the Tory MPs who have publicly admitted that they are entirely responsible for the complete shambles in the prison system.

Braverman being just one of them.

I think you will find that Labour is facing exactly the same problems as the Conservatives, and as they found there are no easy solutions.
So easy to criticise.

eazybee

I think you will find that Labour is facing exactly the same problems as the Conservatives, and as they found there are no easy solutions.
So easy to criticise.

As a matter of interest, what 'same problems' will Labour be facing?

Thanks to posters who answered sparklefizz’ request for sources to support my statement that other Northern European/scandi countries get better results from alternatives to custody than we get from imprisoning more than those countries