Junior doctors pay offer

David49

Whatever they are called Junior doctors are just that, they work under the supervision of an experienced doctor, their skills are may be very limited, an experienced nurse will often overrule a Junior doctor.

That said they deserve a decent wage for the hours they put in and it was right to settle the pay claim.

I doubt that a nurse would over-rule a Senior Registrar.

An experienced nurse might quietly suggest something but he/she would have more professionalism than to over-rule a Registrar in front of a patient.

Their skills are not limited, they are fully qualified doctors who may have been working in their speciality for many years, possibly ten, before going on to the Specialist Register then they may become Consultants.

David49

NotSpaghetti

I think a qualified doctor in the maxiofacial depth who is not yet a consultant (maybe they have enough) but has been practising for 11 years will not be overruled by an "experienced nurse", David!

I do hope not, anyway! 😱

No but a junior doctor in his first couple of years is watched very carefully?
I’m sure you know perfectly well that a doctor is termed Junior for the 1st 4 yrs then goes to speciality training and becomes a Registrar, so your 11 yrs is very wide of the mark!.

Specialty Registrars are still known as Junior Doctors.
It's quite an insulting term, really, for doctors with years of training.

11 years is not wide of the mark if you include medical training, in fact it is short.

ronib

Has the state of the NHS improved and the dire conditions magically disappeared following on from the 22 per cent pay rise? I don’t think so….

Why would anyone think so?

I would have liked to have seen a little lateral thinking here.
What about a cost free training with a clause ensuring a certain time to be spent I the NHS post foundation year.
I strongly suspect that their leaders have been playing a political game here , its been all to easy for Labour to come to an agreement

As usual one party blames the other for being in a lot of debt due to the previous government.
What with labour paying the doctors a sum they wanted. Also, (the cost the increase in windmills etc so they have already spent the amount of debt that Labour complained about taking over

Just to clarify the position. The junior doctors have not been paid anything. They have been OFFERED 22% over two years, and are currently consulting about the offer. There is no agreement Zetters.

Hopefully they will vote to accept it.

David I posted this link earlier.
You may like to look at it?

It's designed for international doctors really but explains who is what.
Yes. You can be junior at 11 years!

www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/international-doctors/life-and-work-in-the-uk/toolkit-for-doctors-new-to-the-uk/doctors-titles-explained

When my husband was a junior doctor, albeit many years ago, he got £7 for 140 hour week. Granted it was neither safe nor sensible even then. He didn’t live at home for the first 5 years we were married. However, we knew it was going to be tough but if we got through that times would be much better. I do appreciate that we live in different times now and medicine is more complex, but it wasn’t just a job.

David newly qualified doctors are not called junior doctors for the first four years. Newly qualified doctors are called Foundation doctors for two years, F1 and F2. Then they are free to apply for a training post in the specialty that they wish to work in, or some apply for a rotation working in any specialty in order to gain experience. All these doctors are called Registrars. After so many years working in their chosen specialty, because by then they have gained a lot of experience in that specialty, they become Senior Registrars. The final step is to become a Consultant or a GP. GPs are consultant level. This pay award is not for Consultants or GPs, it is for all the other doctors who are often called junior doctors, but I can assure you that many of them are anything but inexperienced.
I hope that information helps you. I am the mother of a GP who has passed through all the levels (twelve years in total) to become fully qualified. She has been fully qualified for nearly ten years and has taken many other courses and exams in some of the areas she is especially interested in.

And GP’s have been balloted about whether to cap appointments in a work-to-rule scenario.

Plenty for Labour to be sorting out regarding many NHS issues.

This pay award is not for Consultants or GPs, it is for all the other doctors who are often called junior doctors, but I can assure you that many of them are anything but inexperienced.

That's why the term 'junior doctors' is a misnomer.
Who decided it was a good idea? Government or the BMA?

ronib

Chocolatelovingran The NHS has grown away from its original principles and is treating many more people for many more illnesses than back in the 1940s. It has morphed into a huge bureaucracy and I rather guess Wes Streeting has plans to make changes.
Why else would he block the 40 hospitals build? I think Streeting is moving towards a private health system. I would like to be wrong.

I have high hopes of Wes Streeting, he seems sensible and well motivated to improve the NHS.
This government had no choice but to offer a good pay rise to the junior doctors both to get them back to full working and to retain them.

Oreo I had high hopes of Wes Streeting but so far the new regime is not very good at public communication.
Heaven only knows what he has up his sleeve.
Now we must ask is a staggered 22 percent over 2 years enough to pacify the doctors and have their working conditions miraculously improved by offering one percent more than the last government?
I wonder when the vote takes place?

Whether or not their working conditions have improved is beside the point. Their home conditions have improved because of this pay award. It wouldn’t have been necessary if the Conservative government hadn’t treated them so appallingly. We absolutely cannot have doctors being paid little more than the minimum wage, which some of the F1 and F2 doctors were earning. Whilst being paid so little, and meeting all the usual domestic bills, they also have to pay back their student loans which they accumulated for the privilege of working in our NHS and treating us.

Well, the GP’s have voted on the work-to-rule.

Looks like fewer appointments may be a consequence.

So if they agree to their pay rise - will they work to increase their output to reduce the NHS waiting lists?

When I first started working for the NHS GP’s used to be on call at night but still had to work the next day. They stopped having to do that but then some of the GP’s would come into work tired because they’d worked privately the night before. I wish I knew what was actually happening at GP practices these days. I know the service ours provides is nothing like how it was when I worked for them. It really upsets me.

As I understand it Maybee GP Practices have been underfunded for some years and some are even closing because they can no longer balance the books. My daughter was a partner at the GP Practice where she worked before she went to New Zealand and she was saying even then that there was insufficient funding for the practice. I don’t think this is about salaries because partners were already taking less pay then (three years ago) in order to fund the practice. It’s complicated but I support their action and hope they will be listened to by this government.

swampy1961

So if they agree to their pay rise - will they work to increase their output to reduce the NHS waiting lists?

That’s not how it works in general practice generally, unless it is run by salaried GPs. Most GPs are contractors, running the practice as a business. What is happening in GP practices is very similar to what happened for dentists, because when the payment is for a by item of care service rather than a fixed rate, they can only survive by jumping for the fee, and the baseline payment to enable them to carry out routine work, eg consultations has kept reducing in real terms. That’s why they have to hit their vaccination targets for example.

After watching hours of 24hrs in A&E a Jnr Doctor does see patients and tries to make diagnosis but always goes to the Consultant for guidelines and to check they are doing correct think. There are also a lot of senior nurses that know as much as a Jnr Doctor. My husband had an accident some years back and needed stitches in his knee, the doctor asked for a certain thread to do stitches and the nurse asked him three times if he was sure that is the one he wanted to use, the nurse got appropriate thread for the task.

My understanding is that Junior Doctor refers to all doctors below Registrar level, but not GPs

I wish the doctors would vote on it quickly🤞🏼and accept the offer.

Senior nurses are excellent,but they do not know as much as a junior doctor. To begin with, it depends on which level of junior doctor is being discussed. Some have been working and training for many years. A friend of my daughter decided to train to be an anaesthetist so he did five years in university, two years as F1 and F2, and then a further six years of training to become a consultant anaesthetist. Is anyone seriously claiming that because a nurse knew the best thread to put some stitches in makes the nurse more qualified than a doctor. Really?

Doctors do a entire year of learning in physiology and a further year training in pharmacology. My daughter went on to study a further year in Speech Therapy (treating stroke patients etc) and then graduated as a BSc. Then three more years in clinical practice, working in the wards on various rotations, after which she graduated as M.D. (doctor of medicine.) Then F1 and F2, two further years in hospital as a junior doctor on various rotations. She was sometimes in charge of several wards all night when she was on night duty.Don’t expect an F2 to do your heart transplant, but understand that they are fully trained medics, often working without supervision, and have had a much longer, and wider, and more detailed training than a nurse. That is in no way to not value nurses.

Maddy is correct
Weleynwitch -I’m not in the least surprised nurses are more experienced in stitching injuries
A bit like when I refused to let the young doctor in his first week on the maternity ward to use forceps . A very experienced midwife arrived. ‘I hear you’ve been shouting at my young doctor - will yiu let me examine you. She did, asked me if I could follow instructions - yes I said. Ok we can do this together, let’s do it. 8lb7oz front to pubes baby delivered - no forceps, no stitches
I’d seen the yiung doc in clinic that week, he was clearly scared and out of his depth there so I didn’t want to be his practice forceps case