Riots in Southport

MayBee70

maddyone

I think it growstuff because many rioters have been arrested, brought to court, and sentenced all in about three days. Some of them are now in prison. Good.
However the thugs who are said to have broken a police woman’s nose, and who ferociously attacked two other police officers, captured on video and seen by everyone, have yet to be charged, they have been bailed with no charges. Meanwhile two police officers are now under investigation, quite rightly, but that should not eliminate the charges which should be brought to the two thugs. Sadly I think it unlikely that they will be charged given the amount of time that has now passed. I’ll be very happy to be proved wrong.

You will be proved wrong and you are just trying to propagate the lie about two tier policing. We all need to think twice about things we put on social media in the current climate. As has been pointed out this is an ongoing case and HQ have already had to remove an entire thread devoted to it. Why try to reactivate it on another thread if it isn’t to try to undermine the government at a very difficult time?

Agreed, MayBee.

As has been pointed out there is a big difference between someone being charged, pleading guilty and getting processed immediately, and someone being bailed awaiting charge, or pleading not guilty. As you yourself say, these people are 'said to have' attacked a police officer. In the interests of justice both for the police officer and the accused, a case has to be built before they can be found guilty.

The alternative would be either to bring them to court with insufficient evidence and risk having them released as a result, or remanded in custody before even getting to trial at a time when there is little space in the system thanks to 14 years of cuts. Which would you prefer, maddie?

Rosie51

growstuff perhaps you missed my earlier request. can you post links to where you read about the razor blades stuffed down train seats please? Try as I might all I can find is the blade at Dunton Green station.

This is one reference:

news.sky.com/story/kent-labour-councillor-ricky-jones-suspended-after-telling-walthamstow-protest-fascists-need-to-have-throats-cut-13193298

It's not the one I came across, which said something about the stickers having NF (presumably National Front) on them ... still looking.

Thank you for your balanced response to my post Doodledog.

Another link:

www.kentonline.co.uk/dartford/news/labour-councillor-suspended-after-telling-counter-protest-311017/

Maybee don’t accuse me of anything at all, you are out of order. I was responding to another poster asking why I thought what I thought. I answered her politely.
You’re post was unnecessarily aggressive, so I’m asking you politely to refrain from being aggressive towards me.
If you dislike it, or me, please ask for this post to be deleted. I’m sure you, or someone else, will do that.

You were agreeing with someone who was spreading false allegations at a time when we all have to be careful about what we say on social media. I don’t feel that my comment was aggressive in any way and I stand by what I say. The allegation of two tier policing is wrong. Even if you didn’t make the original allegation you were complicit by repeating it. And, as has been pointed out before, the case is ongoing and HQ have already removed a whole thread devoted to it.

many rioters have been arrested, brought to court, and sentenced all in about three days. Some of them are now in prison

I find it quite amazing too, maddyone.

Obviously in more complicated cases, evidence has to be gathered, witnesses found and summoned to court but this all seems remarkably speedy.

Compare that with some of the recent cases published in Telford eg someone has been charged and waiting seven years for trial.

Where there's a will there's a way, a pity all our justice system can't be speeded up.

They are following the same pattern of criminal justice they used in the 2011 riots which was successful in quelling the riots.

Exceptional circumstances call for exceptional action.

You have to view this outside of the norm.

It's sad that up to 7 years is the norm now.

Callistemon213

It's sad that up to 7 years is the norm now.

Maybe the criminal justice system has been starved of money in the way that most things have been over the past 14 years?

Callistemon213

^many rioters have been arrested, brought to court, and sentenced all in about three days. Some of them are now in prison^

I find it quite amazing too, maddyone.

Obviously in more complicated cases, evidence has to be gathered, witnesses found and summoned to court but this all seems remarkably speedy.

Compare that with some of the recent cases published in Telford eg someone has been charged and waiting seven years for trial.

Where there's a will there's a way, a pity all our justice system can't be speeded up.

I agree with you, but the riots would have continued if all these rioters had been waiting up to seven years for sentencing, given that 70% of them already had previous convictions. Court officials are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea, aren’t they, they can’t win?

MayBee70

Callistemon213

It's sad that up to 7 years is the norm now.

Maybe the criminal justice system has been starved of money in the way that most things have been over the past 14 years?

Criminal Justice has been starved of money over the psst 14 years in just the same way as other public sector services.

Not only has it been starved of money, but there was the disastrous failure of the privatisation of the probation service, and its reversal. An unnecessary and expensive disaster .

The failure of the CJS just isn't as high profile as that of the NHS, Education and Social Care, as fewer people are directly affected by it.

I’m affected by it. Not as a criminal, nor are any of my family criminals, but I have a son who is a barrister, though that’s really all private cases and self funded by the litigants, but I also know someone who is a judge in the family court and frequently mentions the lack of money in the court system. Obviously it’s good that these criminals have been dealt with quickly, I don’t think anyone would dispute that (and the reason they can be quickly identified is because they are already known and have been in the system previously) but the length of time other cases wait to be heard is far too long because the court system is backed up with a huge backlog of cases, partly arising out of Covid. During Covid cases could be heard via Zoom or other video type calls, these were cases such as my son deals with, in Employment, Contract and law relating to business. He appeared in court from his study. Criminal law requires the accused to appear in court as I understand it, and often, but not always, there is a jury (I don’t think a jury would have been used with these rioters) and so Covid pretty much closed down much of the criminal justice system. Nonetheless, the court system has been seriously deprived of funding and this has led to this huge backlog of cases.

It remains to be seen whether the new government will be prepared to put money where it is desperately needed in our criminal justice system. The speedy action with regard to these rioters suggests it can be done if there is a will to do it, but I have not heard any member of the new government say that they are committed to doing this and so I await with interest.

Labour did make a commitment in the manifesto for the election as follows:

"After 14 years of neglect, the criminal justice system is broken. Victims wait months, sometimes years, for their case to come to trial, unable to move on with their lives. As an initial step to address the courts backlog, Labour will ensure more prosecutors are available by allowing Associate Prosecutors to work on appropriate cases".

It was also referred to in the Kings Speech which set out the programme of legislation.

This is the Law Society response

www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/news-articles/kings-speech-july-2024#:~:text=Crime%20and%20justice&text=We%20broadly%20welcome%20measures%20intended,the%20criminal%20exploitation%20of%20children.

"The new UK government has set out an ambitious legislative plan and we are pleased to see the criminal justice system is on its agenda".

Impossible to say where it stands in the list of priorities financially.

It was in part in the Labour Manifesto maddyone, included in the Key policies

As an initial step to address the courts backlog, Labour will ensure more prosecutors are available by allowing Associate Prosecutors to work on appropriate cases

Labour will introduce a ‘Hillsborough Law’ which will place a legal duty of candour on public servants and authorities and provide legal aid for victims of disasters or state-related deaths

Ensure there is a legal advocate in every police force area to advise victims of violence against women and children

Oh good, I’m glad to hear that Wyllowand Casdon.
I admit that whilst I’m interested in politics, I don’t follow it to the same extent as some other Gransnetters do, so I hadn’t registered that.

I had to look it up, maddyone, as only had a vague idea.

growstuff thanks for those links. It seems it's only Ricky Jones that is making the accusations NF stickers on trains concealing razor blades and razor blades down seats, since there are no reports of police investigations. Given his appalling behaviour in whipping up the crowd in Walthamstow with his remarks and cut throat gesture I'll reserve judgement on the veracity of his accusations.

An aside - two men in crown court this afternoon both have the first name Jordan. The irony.

Rosie51

growstuff thanks for those links. It seems it's only Ricky Jones that is making the accusations NF stickers on trains concealing razor blades and razor blades down seats, since there are no reports of police investigations. Given his appalling behaviour in whipping up the crowd in Walthamstow with his remarks and cut throat gesture I'll reserve judgement on the veracity of his accusations.

So do I. That's why I wrote "allegedly". I was just trying to think what on earth motivated his rant. Originally, I saw a longer version of the video. He was going on about the razor blades and then immediately started on his rant - in his mind the two seemed to be connected. I'm genuinely not excusing the rant - it was appalling, especially for somebody in a position of responsibility as a councillor.

Thanks Wyllow and Casdon for summarising Labour’s manifesto.
The rioters are being dealt with speedily in the way they were in 2011 when previous riots took place.
It’s terrible that our CJS has been so neglected, starved of cash and resources with the result trials are horribly delayed

Well done everyone involved in getting the rioters dealt with swiftly, it’s said to be key in putting off potential rioters.

No comparison with the Manchester Airport incident

Ricky Jones has been charged, and is appearing at magistrates court today.
news.sky.com/story/former-labour-councillor-charged-with-encouraging-violent-disorder-13193988

I just saw after I’d posted that he has been remanded in custody.

It's interesting to read that many of those charged, found guilty and imprisoned have previous convictions, some several. Alcohol and drugs were also found to be contributory factors.

Rosie51

growstuff thanks for those links. It seems it's only Ricky Jones that is making the accusations NF stickers on trains concealing razor blades and razor blades down seats, since there are no reports of police investigations. Given his appalling behaviour in whipping up the crowd in Walthamstow with his remarks and cut throat gesture I'll reserve judgement on the veracity of his accusations.

It's something that has been appearing on social media for year, razor blades with messages re Brexit, Terfs, whatever is the current newsworthy story.